Corner Exit Speed

I was wondering what are some ways to find more corner exit speed. We raced Saturday night and there was a kart that was like a rocket coming out of the corners. My son ended up winning the race barely but only because the other kart came out of 4 a little too low and then had to adjust his line going into 1 which slowed him down overall. From what we know they had a little more internal rolled in their tires and we used the same prep except they made a 50/50 mixture with black sand to use at the track. From what they told us it was also the same gear and very close air. We thought maybe our son's kart was too tight or too much grip in the tires but his drops were 200 or less and he didn't look locked down.
 
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is he getting in the corner good ?
Yeah seemed to be better than the other kart going into turn 1. The other kid was jerking the wheel alot going into 1. I couldn't see much going into 3 but from what I was told my son was smooth on the wheel in 3/4 and smooth coming out of 4.
 
Better forward drive and maximizing more momentum.
From what I could tell my son was maximizing momentum more by running the groove better and being smoother on the wheel but maybe there's more to it. I'm thinking if the other kid maximized momentum more he would have been significantly faster than my son and that's why I'm confused. We are friends with the parents and if what we were told is right everything was pretty close with tires. We do have two different karts so we thought it could be our kart being too tight or maybe a little more grip in the tires slowing him down.
 
Kartracer123 your question caused me to blend in old things I think are right with some new thoughts or in a new way. I'll try to explain these new thoughts as best I can and don't figure any of it is correct because it's just food for thought. In karting and racing there are a lot of ideas floating around which may and should cause you to try stuff. Listen to all take what you want from it but you have to try and decide everything for yourself. What's good is to have some sort of go to person on here and at the track to help you sort out the good from the bad. racing promoter is one in my opinion. He's one of those experienced go to people. Thanks if you read my BS but just use it to think about stuff using others as input for what you might really try.

First off I don't separate a corner into entry, apex and exit though there is still entry, a moving/changing apex and an exit dirt oval racing. I seperate the corner into four functions instead of parts:

1. The moment of turn in or the start of the corner. Usually you'll hear it's the LF that starts you into the corner but anything driver input, the bank of the track, changes in grip, etc., all can get you started into the corner. The start of the corner is something which causes the initial weight transfer from left to right and back to front, which is needed during the corner.

2. Next comes the needed control of weight transfer to the right which will cause your tires to operate for the next phase or function in the corner which is maintaining momentum. I often say and explain that if two racers on a track have identical equipment and potential with all other things being equal the driver who can maintain the most momentum between the moment of turn in and the start of acceleration will be the fastest.

The momentum portion of the turn is a must to be fast. Enhancing it is what always has lead to the old saying of "slow down to go fast". It is the portion of the turn which includes what left and right racings calls the apex and if used properly 'cannot' be used for acceleration.

If you get on the gas beyond what is needed to set your momentum speed or remain on the gas beyond your limit of grip during this part of the turn, it will mean a loss of over all speed. If you can accelerate during this part of the turn it means you have more grip that can be used to maintain additional momentum. Instead of the pedal to the metal you should be using the additional available grip to maintain more momentum.

3. Once you have completed maintaining momentum which may have been very short or though a long portion of the turn depending on track configuration and how your choosing your line on the track, the start of acceleration begins. It's the start of acceleration which determines the start of exit and the start of exit is not the completion of a turn but 'another' turn. The start of acceleration should be taken and considered using items 1 and 2 above no matter how short, quick or gradual you start your acceleration. It's also often said turn exit is determined by entry. Yes it is with the addition of how your maintaining momentum portion of the turn sets you position on the track for the start of acceleration. If you have set entry and maintaining momentum to include enough of the over all turning needed to complete the overall turn, your transitioning to acceleration while exiting will be mild because you do not have excessive turning to do while exiting.

4. The final phase or function needed is to accelerate. If you have maintained momentum and completed enough of the overall turning during 1 and 2 you will be able to maximize acceleration based on how little turning you have to do while accelerating.

How fast you can come off the corner depends on how long a straight your position on the track gives you. It also depends on if your acceleration can take advantage of gravity traveling down the track. And it most importantly depends on how much of the over all turning at an end of the track or each of the four corners you have left to do while accelerating. The more turning you have left the less you will be able to accelerate.

If written correctly all of the above should lead to thoughts of how usually through most of the physical distance at each end of the track you cannot accelerate. If you can't accelerate then you must be either slowing down or maintaining momentum. Fast becomes who can maintain the most momentum and best put themselves in a position to accelerate in the straightest line. The only trade offs to 1, 2, 3 and 4 above are racing trade offs where to gain position you must lessen your use of one of the above. A slide job which gets you from point A to B quicker but causes you to also slow down because you did not complete enough turning before needing to accelerate is a good example.

There is one and only one possible option beyond the go pedal to increase your speed during the momentum portion of the turn. It occurs when you use the grip available after initial turn in not to maximize momentum speed but to change your position on the track. If you increase your turning you or tighten your turn while maintaining momentum, the additional turning will increase over all speed the same as an ice skater spinning increases speed when they pull their arms in tighter. Those viewing result when well done will be not only seeing what's racing accelerate down the bank of the track but sort of shoot down the bank of the track. You can also use tightening a turn to increase your momentum speed depending on track conditions by how tight or tightening of the turn you make the or make an extended initial turn in. It's what your often seeing when you see something sort of accelerate into the turn and it best shows itself asphalt oval racing. It's all about how a skilled driver can choose to use the momentum maintaining portion of all turns to both position themselves for exit and control their ability to accelerate on exit.

If you got this far thanks for reading I think it's time to go the my second morning cup of coffee. ... :)


If I didn't say it up front well enough this is all IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ... :)

paul
 
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From what I could tell my son was maximizing momentum more by running the groove better and being smoother on the wheel but maybe there's more to it. I'm thinking if the other kid maximized momentum more he would have been significantly faster than my son and that's why I'm confused. We are friends with the parents and if what we were told is right everything was pretty close with tires. We do have two different karts so we thought it could be our kart being too tight or maybe a little more grip in the tires slowing him down.
Confirmation you sons kart drops were 200 or less ?
 
Kartracer123 your question caused me to blend in old things I think are right with some new thoughts or in a new way. I'll try to explain these new thoughts as best I can and don't figure any of it is correct because it's just food for thought. In karting and racing there are a lot of ideas floating around which may and should cause you to try stuff. Listen to all take what you want from it but you have to try and decide everything for yourself. What's good is to have some sort of go to person on here and at the track to help you sort out the good from the bad. racing promoter is one in my opinion. He's one of those experienced go to people. Thanks if you read my BS but just use it to think about stuff using others as input for what you might really try.

First off I don't separate a corner into entry, apex and exit though there is still entry, a moving/changing apex and an exit dirt oval racing. I seperate the corner into four functions instead of parts:

1. The moment of turn in or the start of the corner. Usually you'll hear it's the LF that starts you into the corner but anything driver input, the bank of the track, changes in grip, etc., all can get you started into the corner. The start of the corner is something which causes the initial weight transfer from left to right and back to front, which is needed during the corner.

2. Next comes the needed control of weight transfer to the right which will cause your tires to operate for the next phase or function in the corner which is maintaining momentum. I often say and explain that if two racers on a track have identical equipment and potential with all other things being equal the driver who can maintain the most momentum between the moment of turn in and the start of acceleration will be the fastest.

The momentum portion of the turn is a must to be fast. Enhancing it is what always has lead to the old saying of "slow down to go fast". It is the portion of the turn which includes what left and right racings calls the apex and if used properly 'cannot' be used for acceleration.

If you get on the gas beyond what is needed to set your momentum speed or remain on the gas beyond your limit of grip during this part of the turn, it will mean a loss of over all speed. If you can accelerate during this part of the turn it means you have more grip that can be used to maintain additional momentum. Instead of the pedal to the metal you should be using the additional available grip to maintain more momentum.

3. Once you have completed maintaining momentum which may have been very short or though a long portion of the turn depending on track configuration and how your choosing your line on the track, the start of acceleration begins. It's the start of acceleration which determines the start of exit and the start of exit is not the completion of a turn but 'another' turn. The start of acceleration should be taken and considered using items 1 and 2 above no matter how short, quick or gradual you start your acceleration. It's also often said turn exit is determined by entry. Yes it is with the addition of how your maintaining momentum portion of the turn sets you position on the track for the start of acceleration. If you have set entry and maintaining momentum to include enough of the over all turning needed to complete the overall turn, your transitioning to acceleration while exiting will be mild because you do not have excessive turning to do while exiting.

4. The final phase or function needed is to accelerate. If you have maintained momentum and completed enough of the overall turning during 1 and 2 you will be able to maximize acceleration based on how little turning you have to do while accelerating.

How fast you can come off the corner depends on how long a straight your position on the track gives you. It also depends on if your acceleration can take advantage of gravity traveling down the track. And it most importantly depends on how much of the over all turning at an end of the track or each of the four corners you have left to do while accelerating. The more turning you have left the less you will be able to accelerate.

If written correctly all of the above should lead to thoughts of how usually through most of the physical distance at each end of the track you cannot accelerate. If you can't accelerate then you must be either slowing down or maintaining momentum. Fast becomes who can maintain the most momentum and best put themselves in a position to accelerate in the straightest line. The only trade offs to 1, 2, 3 and 4 above are racing trade offs where to gain position you must lessen your use of one of the above. A slide job which gets you from point A to B quicker but causes you to also slow down because you did not complete enough turning before needing to accelerate is a good example.

There is one and only one possible option beyond the go pedal to increase your speed during the momentum portion of the turn. It occurs when you use the grip available after initial turn in not to maximize momentum speed but to change your position on the track. If you increase your turning you or tighten your turn while maintaining momentum, the additional turning will increase over all speed the same as an ice skater spinning increases speed when they pull their arms in tighter. Those viewing result when well done will be not only seeing what's racing accelerate down the bank of the track but sort of shoot down the bank of the track. You can also use tightening a turn to increase your momentum speed depending on track conditions by how tight or tightening of the turn you make the or make an extended initial turn in. It's what your often seeing when you see something sort of accelerate into the turn and it best shows itself asphalt oval racing. It's all about how a skilled driver can choose to use the momentum maintaining portion of all turns to both position themselves for exit and control their ability to accelerate on exit.

If you got this far thanks for reading I think it's time to go the my second morning cup of coffee. ... :)


If I didn't say it up front well enough this is all IMHO and ain't necessarily right anyway. ... :)

paul
I read your entire post. It does make sense I think but these boys are 8 and I don't think either could purposely figure out how to drive a perfect corner to maximize corner speed. They both know what a groove is and how to follow it and my son knows holding the wheel steady/being smooth will make you faster. By the looks of things their line in turn 3/4 looked identical but I couldn't tell if the other kid may have had a slightly better line. Going into 1 the other kid was having to adjust his line by jerking the wheel because he came out of 4 too low and stayed too low. This slowed the kid down slightly and was the only reason my son won. Even though the two boys ran almost identical lap times (the other boy had 2 laps that were faster by .0006 and .50) we could tell if the other boy was on the groove coming out of 4 he would have passed my son pretty quickly in the race.
 
We're assuming your competitor was totally truthful about gearing!
Rolling resistance (there are a lot of words to describe various forms of it) has to be a consideration. Still, only dropping 200 RPM in the corner doesn't appear to lend any credence to that.
Jetting differences could account for some of it. A little lean on the low-speed might be a source.
Keeping up with air density, or lack of same, could be a problem.
Differences in compression could account for some of it.
Differences in timing could be a cause.
If the stagger is off, just a little, that could be a cause.
I'm sitting here thinking; how long is the list of things that might cause your problem.
 
could you give examples of better forward drive, and maximizing momentum? OP said they was flat footing with I would think 200rpm drop would be pretty good, thanks in advance
Forward drive is effected by grip, gearing among other things, tires lacking grip would generate less forward drive 1 example, gearing that stops pulling half way down the straight would generate less forward drive 2nd example, tires that have to floppy of sidewalls from either to much internal or just wrong compound will get into the track to much and end up less forward drive, to stiff sidewall will not get into track enough and end up less forward drive, some more examples, good chance from info given the added internal the other kid had got his tires in the track just enough VS him being on top slightly to much, Plus at 200 RPM drop or less good chance he was somewhat gear bound 1 or 2 less teeth on rear ( does not mean less RPM ) drops in the three hundreds good chance would of been faster.
 
From what I could tell my son was maximizing momentum more by running the groove better and being smoother on the wheel but maybe there's more to it. I'm thinking if the other kid maximized momentum more he would have been significantly faster than my son and that's why I'm confused. We are friends with the parents and if what we were told is right everything was pretty close with tires. We do have two different karts so we thought it could be our kart being too tight or maybe a little more grip in the tires slowing him down.
There is more to maximizing momentum than just the driver hitting his or her marks, yes that a big part of it but not everything.
 
Run the same gear ratio but with a smaller driver. and/or Low cross setups are faster going into the corner, but lazy coming off. Try running a high gross set up if you are not already.
 
To the OP; it sounds like you are very close to a great setup. I believe to get to the absolute best drive out of the corner the timing of the left rear is key. This is where caster/camber detailing is critical. Small adjustments go a long way.

DK
 
Run the same gear ratio but with a smaller driver.
In recent memory, there was an ongoing battle about this. Some would say, very persistently, that when conditions were just right, (nobody ever defined "just right") going to a bigger driver with the same ratio would get you more speed. Now you're saying the opposite.
 
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