Determining stagger.

alvin l nunley

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Just a general kind of rule of the thumb.
With a track 100 feet across the infield, 25 foot wide track, it would call for 1 1/8 stagger. Bigger or smaller track, in increments of 10 feet across the infield, about 1/8 difference in stagger. Less width, very slight change in stagger. Using a rear tread width of 39 inches outside to outside, if it measures 3 inches, bigger or smaller, the stagger change is very small. Still, about .03 +/- 3.0". I've drawn 6 tracks, each 10 feet wider than the other across the infield to prove this out.

Yes
 
Just a general kind of rule of the thumb.
With a track 100 feet across the infield, 25 foot wide track, it would call for 1 1/8 stagger. Bigger or smaller track, in increments of 10 feet across the infield, about 1/8 difference in stagger. Less width, very slight change in stagger. Using a rear tread width of 39 inches outside to outside, if it measures 3 inches, bigger or smaller, the stagger change is very small. Still, about .03 +/- 3.0". I've drawn 6 tracks, each 10 feet wider than the other across the infield to prove this out.

Yes
Not this simple but ok.
 
I did. Banking.
I did a couple of articles sometimes back, but they didn't go over very well. In fact, there were those who thought I was about 180° out of step.

I suggested less stagger and more air pressure. I even wrote an Excel spreadsheet showing the changes needed in stagger. It depends on the angle of the banking. Banking obviously requires more tire pressure, but pretty hard to quantify, while stagger changes are simple math. It's
 
Just a general kind of rule of the thumb.
With a track 100 feet across the infield, 25 foot wide track, it would call for 1 1/8 stagger. Bigger or smaller track, in increments of 10 feet across the infield, about 1/8 difference in stagger. Less width, very slight change in stagger. Using a rear tread width of 39 inches outside to outside, if it measures 3 inches, bigger or smaller, the stagger change is very small. Still, about .03 +/- 3.0". I've drawn 6 tracks, each 10 feet wider than the other across the infield to prove this out.

Yes
Since we love hearing our own voice talk about this, and it has been covered before, let's talk about the fundamental flaw in the thinking, and the math in deriving your numbers.

We can calculate radius', but we are dealing with a parabolic arc, with either decreasing radii, or increasing radii.

Our calculations also assume both tires on the staggered axle produce exactly the same amount of traction throughout the entire lap. It does not take much imagination to see this is not possible.

Sprint chassis use weight transfer and mechanical weight jacking to remove traction from the inside tire on an unstaggered solid axle to allow the chassis to negotiate a turn. Tuning this setup involves varying the weight removed to make best use of the traction available. The compromise is that in the center of the corner, we have available less than the maximum lateral traction. We need to do this because we need to be able to turn in both directions.

Lto, oval chassis do not have this limitation. We are only turning left.
To make the best use of the our tires, we need to use all available lateral traction. If we do this well, we need less traction for forward drive (down the straights) Our compromise is to lose some traction on the straights in order to have max traction in the corner.
From sprint racing, we already know that somewhere in the lap, one tire on a solid axle must slip. We also already know that the least loaded tire will do that slipping.

From sprint racing, we already know that changing the vertical center of gravity changes the amount of weight transfer. (Sitting the driver up vs laying the driver down changes the amount of weight transfer.) We also know we can vary weight transfer by changing static weight distribution.

Lto chassis also use the same methods.
We start with the seat as low as possible to limit transfer from the vcg. We start with more left side weight to avoid overloading the right rear tire at the highest g loads experienced in the middle of the corner. We vary the loads experienced by the rear tires by adjusting the cross weight in order to also avoid overloading the right rear tire at the highest g loads.

Lto chassis also use mechanical weight jacking to control timing of the loading of the right rear tire. It just may not match conventional sprint wisdom to get the timing right.

All these things are necessary to make use of the 'correct' stagger. Varying the right rear tire load changes where the stagger matches the radius of the corner, parabola, or arc. Throughout the corner sequence, the g load is always changing, therefore the tire loads are always changing. So stagger can only truly match the corner in part of the arc.

However, in the case of a parabola, if we can time the traction balance correctly, we can make best use of the traction both tires are producing, both lateral and forward.

Banking produces it's own problems. The effect is mainly to do with the direction the g loads effect weight transfer. Varying banking, or transitions change balance of traction across the rear.

Changing stagger can be a tool to get the traction balance across the rear to better match the parabola that is the corner.
It has to work with tire loads to achieve the correct balance.
 
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So what would I do with this track. Its a 1/5th mile. @racing promotor knows what track this is.
Screenshot_20201216-213910_Maps.jpg
 
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So what about a track that runs junior sprints and karts? Ideal kart stagger is 1.75 from what i've gathered. Why do juniors need 3-4inches?
 
Similarly, the track I race at from space looks like a true oval, but races more like an egg. 1&2 are true oval, but 3&4 you have to hit the apex late to be fast.
The drawing below, I think, is fairly representative to the picture we saw earlier. The radius difference is less than 10 feet. The drawings I have, and have spoken of in a previous post, show a 1/8" difference in stagger with a 10 foot difference in infield width. The stagger difference between the 2 corners in the drawing should be less than 1/8 of an inch. I would set the stagger to the larger radius turn.
 

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Here's where I think things vary from the hypothetical world of the spread sheet. The exit sharpness at turn 2 is going to draw the kart out towards the backstretch wall at race speed, which changes the shape of the entry of turn three. Conversely the shape of the track at turns four and one have the kart changing lanes again. So don't all these measurements really need to be taken at the fastest line around the track?
 
The drawing below, I think, is fairly representative to the picture we saw earlier. The radius difference is less than 10 feet. The drawings I have, and have spoken of in a previous post, show a 1/8" difference in stagger with a 10 foot difference in infield width. The stagger difference between the 2 corners in the drawing should be less than 1/8 of an inch. I would set the stagger to the larger radius turn.
Al,
I mean no disrespect, but just because you can get it to work on paper, doesn't mean it will actually work.
You also can't say stagger is one size fit's all. It different between kart brand's, weight class, and what the driver can handle.
I've been on the same kart since 2013, I know what I and it likes at the track's I go to. Theses, manufactures have a very good baseline setup to start out on, the rest is seat time.
Last ,if we all used your spreadsheet, they would still only be one winner.
 
Types of surface ? Amount of grip provided by the surface ? Amount of rubber or prep laid down on a surface ? All kinds of things to take into consideration when choosing what stagger to use . JMO
 
Using stagger as a tuning aid may have some merits, but if it is used, it's only correcting for something that's already wrong elsewhere.

Your rear tires are both following paths of different lengths. In a turn, the outside path is longer than the inside Beth. Stagger is employed to ensure that both tires are rolling along those different tasks. If the stagger is wrong, one tire will be sliding rather than rolling. A sliding tire has less grip than a rolling tire. The difference in the number of turns each tire has to make in order to follow the arc that their following, is easily calculated. Even at that, in everyday use, it's only a close estimate. It's impossible to calculate what each individual driving style would need, but the calculations are very close.

illustrate for you, take a Styrofoam coffee cup, Roland across the table, you'll notice it turns. The difference in diameter, one end to the other, is just exactly what the stagger on your kart does. Double benefit, a rolling tire has more side by then a sliding tire, while a rolling tire creates less resistance to going forward.
 
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