racing promotor
Moderator
Yes even then !!
Early fire tire vs late firing tires
- Thread starter 1fasttiller
- Start date
flattop1
Dawg 89
This got me thinking what would be a standard amount ?
If 60cc is roughly 2 Oz's is 100 cc enough ?
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
Having never raced dirt, it's hard for me to understand, how can you have too much traction (bite)? If the karts not pushing, or lose, and the stagger is set right, how can too much bite slow you down?
I've never raced dirt, but I've done a lot of Sprint racing, never experienced too much bite, sometimes not enough, but never too much. I've experienced push (front tire wear) I've experienced loose (rear tire wear) but I've never experienced too much bite. It's hard for me to even imagine that too much bite (assuming there is such a thing) would ever be a problem.
Now if you've got real "good" bite, incorrect stagger might be a problem. Just a guess. Picking the right, or wrong, line through a corner might be a problem.
"Too much bite" I've never experienced that!
I've never raced dirt, but I've done a lot of Sprint racing, never experienced too much bite, sometimes not enough, but never too much. I've experienced push (front tire wear) I've experienced loose (rear tire wear) but I've never experienced too much bite. It's hard for me to even imagine that too much bite (assuming there is such a thing) would ever be a problem.
Now if you've got real "good" bite, incorrect stagger might be a problem. Just a guess. Picking the right, or wrong, line through a corner might be a problem.
"Too much bite" I've never experienced that!
racing promotor
Moderator
MIn I'd say would be 75 cc to 80 cc and that would be rare, 110 cc would be more avg
racinnut15xm
Member
i just bought my first bottle of goat after almost 2 years running karts so bear with the stupid questions... Everything i've read has said goat is for wet tracks. What made it a goat track on friday night? its hard to follow but is he saying the friday night track had dew falling?
SoCo Tire Treatments
Moderator
It was a goat track because being wet and no bite.
And goat isnt only for wet tracks, low bite tracks you can use goat on as well, whether hard or soft.
SoCo Tire Treatments
Moderator
Too much bite, whether from a too much rubber scenario, or too much prep scenario, is a real issue and can make you slow. Also could be
a mechanical ( set up ) issue.
Too much rubber issue, very good tracks this can happen. Prep is more so with medium to lower bite tracks. The wrong set up can create too much bite as well.
Now since you admitted to never racing dirt, and im guessing karts at all in the last 25 yrs, you may not have experienced this but this is a commonality with oval kart racing, dirt or asphalt.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
Al, Being locked down is a very "real" problem in karting.
Being over-weight and under-powered is the biggest reason you see speed loss with additional grip. The HP:Weight ratio is miserable compared to other forms of racing.
If you could throw more HP at it, being locked down no longer becomes a problem, it becomes a benefit through added grip and speed.
Just to get you thinking:
Consider some of the fuel mileage competitions with emphasis on reduced friction, drag, etc.
Being over-weight and under-powered is the biggest reason you see speed loss with additional grip. The HP:Weight ratio is miserable compared to other forms of racing.
If you could throw more HP at it, being locked down no longer becomes a problem, it becomes a benefit through added grip and speed.
Just to get you thinking:
Consider some of the fuel mileage competitions with emphasis on reduced friction, drag, etc.
Ted Hamilton
Helmet Painter / Racer
So, Brian, why wouldn't you just raise the VcG to take advantage of the extra grip? If being "locked down" is an indication of the chassis fighting the tires and thus losing speed, why not change the chassis to take advantage of the extra grip in tires? It may take a delicate driver to ride the balance of bicycling / lift, but it WILL be faster to use MORE GRIP... Thoughts?
Petty Race Engines
Member
You’re gonna get Jamie fired up again Brian !!!Gee, if only we had some tire temp data to consider, or how about the durometers don't matter crowd?
No, I'm just joking...not to derail the conversation...
Obviously hardness and temperature do matter. Tires wear as a way to help cool themselves. Excess heat causes excess wear. Too soft also cause the tire to wear prematurely.
I like to see some "graining" in a tire after it was ran hard, but you should not see any feathering.
It sure sounds like you were too soft on duro, the tire built up some heat a few laps into a run, and experienced wear (feathering in your case.)
Now, Earl was there, and he said that the track had low bite. Low bite doesn't typically build much heat or wear tires. That makes me think that you were too aggressive on your internal or possibly that your tires were too fresh. I am leaning toward the prep and amount rolled being too aggressive.
Without giving your whole tire program away, I'm curious what duro you were at and how many ounces of what, (& how many weeks ago,) was rolled in your tires, and then what you did externally to them.
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Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
31 years of service to the karting industry
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
Brian , Have a question for you pertaining to fuel additives. Are you allowed to run Propylene oxide in your fuel .? . Thanks Clifford Coker.Gee, if only we had some tire temp data to consider, or how about the durometers don't matter crowd?
No, I'm just joking...not to derail the conversation...
Obviously hardness and temperature do matter. Tires wear as a way to help cool themselves. Excess heat causes excess wear. Too soft also cause the tire to wear prematurely.
I like to see some "graining" in a tire after it was ran hard, but you should not see any feathering.
It sure sounds like you were too soft on duro, the tire built up some heat a few laps into a run, and experienced wear (feathering in your case.)
Now, Earl was there, and he said that the track had low bite. Low bite doesn't typically build much heat or wear tires. That makes me think that you were too aggressive on your internal or possibly that your tires were too fresh. I am leaning toward the prep and amount rolled being too aggressive.
Without giving your whole tire program away, I'm curious what duro you were at and how many ounces of what, (& how many weeks ago,) was rolled in your tires, and then what you did externally to them.
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Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cutz
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Carlson Motorsports on Facebook
31 years of service to the karting industry
Linden, IN
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
That's an interesting question, Ted.
Unlike sprint chassis where you're constantly trying to lift the inside corner of the chassis, using curbing, axle flex, etc, oval karts tend to work better off the left rear (considerably narrower than the right rear tire.) It's that left rear that carries the bulk of the weight of the chassis on straights, and subsequently forces the right rear to lose grip and slip (or ratchet) caused by stagger as the fixed axle rotates. Oval chassis would do better to increase left percentage and decrease right side, along with a lower VcG on higher biting track surfaces. You would raise the VcG to increase the amount of sidebite (get the right sides into the track.)
Actually, there's an easier way to handle this, it's to run narrower right side wheels (and tires) that have a smaller footprint, and thus more PSI into the track...which is the biggest reason that we run wide (flotation) tires on the right sides as it is...We're trying to free up the kart, not get more grip.
A good example is what we've done with our treaded tire program by putting much narrower half tread tires on the right sides than our competition. We didn't give up side bite at all, and we aren't needing more forward bite with the stocker engines that can't spin a tire if they tried. Then with cutting the tread blocks to half tread depth, we further reduce the rotating mass, which again causes cars running our tires to be faster still.
Then consider:
The trend in chassis manufacturing over the past 20 years is to go to stiffer and stiffer chassis (especially in the waste area) to free up the car on higher biting tracks. We can always add bite (mechanically, or chemically) to make up for a lack of grip and speed on low bite track surfaces, but you can't always "free up" a car on high bite tracks (typically when there's a large car count & big money is on the line.) After all, that's a big part of promoting your chassis -- what's winning at the big races -- you can look around on this forum alone and see all the people asking about what chassis "dominated" at this big race or that....Honestly, they should be asking who's tires were up front.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
???? Left field. Anyone? LOL We try to keep discussions "on topic" within discussion threads on here...but since you're new -- we'll all show some grace. After all, we're all guilty of highjacking threads from time to time.
No, you cannot run fuel additives at most any sanctioned kart racing track.
Now, do some people try to get away with it when there's no fuel tech, I'm sure. I do hope that they know how to build their engines accordingly though....fuel additives, such as oxygenators that you mentioned, can be catastrophic to engines built to run on legal fuel.
Ted Hamilton
Helmet Painter / Racer
I appreciate the response, @CarlsonMotorsports. I'm not sure it makes sense to me, though.
What I would do, if the track is high enough bite to allow it, is set the kart up EXACTLY to do what a sprint chassis does, and that will inherently get rid of scrub and allow for more speed. What's curious to me is why low HP karts are using such wide tires to "float" up on the track instead of get down into the track and actually work properly. Through cutting, prepping, and all sorts of gyrations, natural tire shape and function are being abused to make them do something they aren't natively designed to do -- this is a prime example of what I meant by saying in another post that some weird workarounds are used in LTO.
It makes more sense to me to use something like a 6" wide tire, make it work (heat up) until it reaches its' optimum working temperature, and then let 'er eat (As they say.) The prime argument, as far as I can tell, for using the lefts to assist in traction is because the rights can't handle the load themselves.... Well, that makes sense if they're too lightly loaded, or too heavily loaded, or if the track is dry-slick and the tire can't be made to work in its' preferred window. I guess this leads me to conclude that I'd run a completely different setup for a high-tack track than dry-slick.
For dry-slick or more circular tracks, I'd run a high-stagger rear, but skinnier set, using both rears to contribute, each tire in its' optimum temp window -- or as close as I could get 'em.
For high grip and/or asphalt, I'd run a low-stagger rear and rely on RR. We have different tracks here in the SE than others seem to have, so perhaps it would be a unique setup only suited to these tracks... But if an engine can't overcome the binding, the solution (in my mind) seems to be reduce tire, not do weird things. I'll drop out of this thread so I don't pull it off the "firing time" further. On that note, I'd rather get the tire working early and stay in it's window -- a quick acting prep that "burns off" once the tire is in its' prime temp window. And a proper tire compound that didn't have to be manipulated with prep. If prep must be consistently used to add "grip", that's a key indicator that the wrong tire engineering has been chosen to begin with...IMO, of course. This year will be interesting as I test some of these theories.
What I would do, if the track is high enough bite to allow it, is set the kart up EXACTLY to do what a sprint chassis does, and that will inherently get rid of scrub and allow for more speed. What's curious to me is why low HP karts are using such wide tires to "float" up on the track instead of get down into the track and actually work properly. Through cutting, prepping, and all sorts of gyrations, natural tire shape and function are being abused to make them do something they aren't natively designed to do -- this is a prime example of what I meant by saying in another post that some weird workarounds are used in LTO.
It makes more sense to me to use something like a 6" wide tire, make it work (heat up) until it reaches its' optimum working temperature, and then let 'er eat (As they say.) The prime argument, as far as I can tell, for using the lefts to assist in traction is because the rights can't handle the load themselves.... Well, that makes sense if they're too lightly loaded, or too heavily loaded, or if the track is dry-slick and the tire can't be made to work in its' preferred window. I guess this leads me to conclude that I'd run a completely different setup for a high-tack track than dry-slick.
For dry-slick or more circular tracks, I'd run a high-stagger rear, but skinnier set, using both rears to contribute, each tire in its' optimum temp window -- or as close as I could get 'em.
For high grip and/or asphalt, I'd run a low-stagger rear and rely on RR. We have different tracks here in the SE than others seem to have, so perhaps it would be a unique setup only suited to these tracks... But if an engine can't overcome the binding, the solution (in my mind) seems to be reduce tire, not do weird things. I'll drop out of this thread so I don't pull it off the "firing time" further. On that note, I'd rather get the tire working early and stay in it's window -- a quick acting prep that "burns off" once the tire is in its' prime temp window. And a proper tire compound that didn't have to be manipulated with prep. If prep must be consistently used to add "grip", that's a key indicator that the wrong tire engineering has been chosen to begin with...IMO, of course. This year will be interesting as I test some of these theories.
1fasttiller
Member
Please don’t drop out of the thread! I like where this is going and consider it very valuable reading! I’ve often thought of this exact theory Ted, especially in Jr classes.
Ted Hamilton
Helmet Painter / Racer
I WANT temperature rise....to get the tire to the temp it's supposed to be at in the first place. I maintain that current tire setups aren't using the tire like it's designed to from the factory. I want more temps so I can do LESS prep work. Prep is a band-aid for a tire not doing what it's designed to be doing -- heat up and grip. I WANT more friction and temp rise. -- so that I can make the tire work. The more I can get the tire to do what it's supposed to be doing, the less time I have to guess at prep and waste time during the week....leading to better results with less work = winning.
1fasttiller
Member
Not to mention, smaller tires/less contact patch equals less rolling resistance which we all know plate classes can benefit from. Think of a 6.0 tire on the RR and a 4.50 on the LR how much lighter the axle would be to turn! Less rotating mass plus less rolling resistance down the straights!
In my mind, it works but I'm afraid to try it!
In my mind, it works but I'm afraid to try it!
jaymancds
Member
In your previous post you highlighted a prep that quickly burns off once the tire is to temp. I dont know if this is common everywhere, and I know of several tracks that dont allow it, but for us we will always wipe green just before setting the kart on the grid, so that the tire is still wet rolling onto the track, and then scrub the crap out of our tires on the formation lap. It doesnt matter what I do prior to the green wiping, I use it to get the kart to fire through the first lap and a half or so, then whatever I did before that takes over. It seems to be the ticket for our local track right now.