oh i'm breathing! lol! I just find that some reasons and rules don't make any sense get my dander up....i'm for simplicity and clear cut rules. understanding that tracks can pull you down for any reason is a reason....because they (the track) suspects that something may not be right. fine, that I can do. what I won't do is protest someone just to be told that I have to tear down first....its not me that is being looked at...i'm paying to make sure they are legal....
engine protest procedures
- Thread starter johnelliott
- Start date
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
perhaps the reasoning is; if we make it as hard on you as possible, maybe you'll stop protesting! Perhaps it's like this; "how dare you put us through all this trouble!!" "You put us to all this trouble, so we're going to put you through a lot of trouble." I think that has more to do with it than anything.
From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
DynoDon
Moderator
Actually, this is how the tear down first rule got started. There were karters who no matter what they did couldn't beat certain other karters. So they took to cheating. Then when they still couldn't beat them, they insisted that the karter they couldn't beat was cheating. After all, I am cheating and I still can't beat them so they must be cheating also. This was an epidemic in the flathead days. So the guy who was cheating requested the track tear down the guy he couldn't beat. At first it was ok but then it became a problem for tracks. Tracks began to charge a fee for the service and that they should due to the time involved. Word got around ( not by internet that's for sure ) that this was taking place and tracks decided to squelch it they would force the protester to pay a fee and his engine would go down first. That was suppose to put the ball back into the hands of tracks and tech to keep an eye on the playing field. I personally don't like the protest procedure due to many factors that I won't go into but, when in Rome, do as the Romans do!!!
10th claiming 9th is stupid...same with 10th claiming the winner.... most are written that you have to finish in the top 3 to 5 and must finish directly behind the one that you claim....same with the protest...at least that's the way that a lot of the rules that i've researched on this topic are....
rebsfan4
Member
Looks pretty obvious this is just one more thing 100% can not agree on. So how do you solve it? Simple.....before you go to a track, familiarize yourself with their rules and procedures. If they do something in a way you do not agree with.....stay home or go somewhere else. When you go to a track you have made a conscious decision to follow the rules and guidelines, not make them up once you get there and find out they are not to your liking.
Steve Vermeer
Member
I agree!You get to decide BEFORE you go.
racer47
New member
I would just like to hear one good reason to keep the protestor (yeah that guy who put up the money) out of the tech area !
And don't say because he might see all of the top secret stuff. Because if the written rules are done correctly for a "stock" class, there really shouldn't be any visible secret stuff. A little polishing here and a little grinding there. That is either right or wrong. I don't care if you polished or ground 0.0005 more or less than the next guy.
And don't say because he might see all of the top secret stuff. Because if the written rules are done correctly for a "stock" class, there really shouldn't be any visible secret stuff. A little polishing here and a little grinding there. That is either right or wrong. I don't care if you polished or ground 0.0005 more or less than the next guy.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
Seeing the cam profile?
You asked for "one good reason." There are many more.
Personally, as an engine builder (and tech guy) I don't have anything to hide -- I could care less if the guy protesting one of our engines is in the tech barn. Now with technology, if a cell phone, recorder, or notebook is brought out...I might be a little more than upset.
Note, if your tech man is writing any notes down in the process of your engine being teched, I'd be sure to say something. There's no need to write down a cam profile (or any notes for that matter) when teching an engine.
I think the BEST reason to keep the "extra" people out of the tech barn is to decrease their level of "influence" or "arguments" in the process. It's not a "fun" job, but it is "necessary" to keep racers trust in their competitors and the track that they spend their money with.
Fairly routine procedure to have ONE individual representing the engine being protested in the tech barn with the tech inspector(s). No additional input or eyes are needed.
--
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cuts
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Celebrating 25 years of service to the karting industry
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
You asked for "one good reason." There are many more.
Personally, as an engine builder (and tech guy) I don't have anything to hide -- I could care less if the guy protesting one of our engines is in the tech barn. Now with technology, if a cell phone, recorder, or notebook is brought out...I might be a little more than upset.
Note, if your tech man is writing any notes down in the process of your engine being teched, I'd be sure to say something. There's no need to write down a cam profile (or any notes for that matter) when teching an engine.I think the BEST reason to keep the "extra" people out of the tech barn is to decrease their level of "influence" or "arguments" in the process. It's not a "fun" job, but it is "necessary" to keep racers trust in their competitors and the track that they spend their money with.
Fairly routine procedure to have ONE individual representing the engine being protested in the tech barn with the tech inspector(s). No additional input or eyes are needed.
--
Thanks and God bless,
Brian Carlson
Carlson Racing Engines
Vector Cuts
www.CarlsonMotorsports.com
Celebrating 25 years of service to the karting industry
765-339-4407
bcarlson@CarlsonMotorsports.com
racer47
New member
You are much more trusting than I am ! I am not a cam expert at all. I have saw lift checked on many cams in cars over the years. What would be the downside of the cam rule to be to check lift only? Ok so changing the cams profile can have an advantage. There are already multiple cams out on the market. Why not just have a lift rule and let the cam designers make cams. We already have to buy them. What comes in the motor from China is not what we race. Cars were so much simpler !!
rebsfan4
Member
Karting is no more difficult than people wish to make it. How do you think flooding the market with a BUNCH of different cams will simplify things. That would do nothing but great conflict in other areas. Then those conflicts would lead to conflicts in other areas.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
I don't know much about camshafts, but I do know this; you could have 2 cams with identical maximum lifts and the same durations and one cam, because of acceleration/deceleration rates, could make more horsepower. You might be able to see this, just by looking, but I have my doubts.
From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
From the desk of Al Nunley
Comments compliments criticisms and questions always welcome.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. (Al Nunley)
racer47
New member
If the super secret ones that no one wants us to see with our eyes were available to everyone, then the market would be simplified. All of these "versions" out there would become just 1 or 2 to choose from. What we have now available to the backyard builder would go away when the super secret models appear.
CarlsonMotorsports
Site Supporter
Then again, if I pay my cam grinder extra for a personal grind, I don't want it being made available to others. Flathead stockers have probably 30+ grinds available. Realistically, you could count on one hand what's being used by the majority of the big name builders today. Markets might "simplify", but not without expense to everyone while the R&D goes on for a few years. Seems the clone crowd has gone through this cycle recently and there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of room to move the profile around. Animal cams are basically 2 or 3 in use today, along with a few builder's custom grinds that they have ground specifically for them (or to fit specific blocks.)
If you want to simplify the cam game, you could always spec a cam (similar to animal pro-gas), but then the problem becomes variances in blocks (esp. clones) where you'd still have cams rolling differently than the "spec." and you'd have guys going through several blocks to find one that the cam fills the window best in. Time = money!
A lift only rules on clones would be a disaster (in my opinion.) Opening ramps would be sped up so steep that you'd be breaking parts left and right - valve springs would become stiffer and stiffer, and the need for billet rods even moreso than it already is.
If you want to simplify the cam game, you could always spec a cam (similar to animal pro-gas), but then the problem becomes variances in blocks (esp. clones) where you'd still have cams rolling differently than the "spec." and you'd have guys going through several blocks to find one that the cam fills the window best in. Time = money!
A lift only rules on clones would be a disaster (in my opinion.) Opening ramps would be sped up so steep that you'd be breaking parts left and right - valve springs would become stiffer and stiffer, and the need for billet rods even moreso than it already is.
kartracer03
Member
when I was running flatheads, my engine builder would put any protested engine that won a regular race or top 3 of a big race back together for $25, plus shipping. He looked at it as good advertising. He sold a lot of engines around here before health issues made him stop racing.
racing promotor
Moderator
Real Simple WHY the protester is not in the room, He's already half cocked That's why he protested in the first place, He's gonna question every move the tech man makes, He's going to hear an If, And, Or, But, differently and spout off the tech man over looked something, He's gonna cause Tech to take twice as long as it should, Heck ya can't agree on whats in black and white how ya gonna agree with what your seeing, just would cause WAY to many issues.
racer47
New member
You seem to assume that the "protester" that you speak of is at all tracks. People are different. Not everyone reacts the same just like not everyone will agree on who should or should not be in the tech shed. Yes, some will be agitated and some will take it for what it is and move on. Way too many assumptions being made. I have never raced in Pa. but Im not going to assume that everyone there will react "half cocked". My opinion, tho different from yours, is this: If I finish second in a race that pays over a couple of hundred dollars and protest 1st place, I expect to be able to watch the process. If Im not allowed to, I will then cancel the protest and not race at a track where things go on behind closed doors. Me personally have no secrets so deep that I would let anyone question my integrity.
rebsfan4
Member
You keep harping on this "top secret" stuff without acknowledging or seemingly understanding that not all builders set their engines up the same. That stuff you have no right to see. Not sure you are so adamant about your rights to.
racer47
New member
I could care less if I see the top secret stuff. I just want to make sure that the engine that I put up MY money to make sure is legal is indeed legal. Its as simple as that. As I said in an earlier post..... not all tracks have a AKRA Trained Tech man. And you may not believe this, but guys have teched engines that they built themselves !! IT HAPPENS !! IT SHOULDNT !! What if YOUR motor is protested and no "official" tech guy is there, but the promoter sees "Bubba" walking thru the pit area and knows that Bubba builds motors in his bathroom as a hobby. He gets Bubba to tech your motor. Do you want to be able to see this process? Don't tell me you wouldn't race at this track, because some of us have to.