Track Tac

How old is to old of a chassis for saturday racing?

Bradley71 said:
There was a old video on youtube i wish i could find.a pro rider rode a xl185 dirt bike and he raced a amatuer on a new 450 bike and the pro beat him by like 3 mins on a hare scramble racešŸ˜‚on a 40 yr old dual shock bike.kicked his butt..i remember first kart book i read ,it said ya can win with a washboard if ya work on it enough.i believe it.
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Dirt bikes and karts are totally different.
That kart book was probably from the 70's.
Sorry, your not winning on a kart from 2000 when your against new stuff and knowledge, on the dirtphalt of the southeast, on a low bite Saturday bull ring, your odds may increase a little.
Now there are some karts from the mid 2000's that are still winning races against good competition, but only a few, and that's because of their design, and the need to sell new karts made them move on from them, when I don't think they should of.
 
How many times in the midwest would 20 karts all qualify within .785 of each other? Btw kids between 8 and 13.
 
we have a class called bombers and the kart has to be a pre-2000 kart. my brother runs a 1998 predator chassis.
 
ABR #69 said:
Now, I know this was two of the biggest races in my area this year so far. And the OP asked about Saturday night racing. I personally feel like 2010 and up if you're starting out. Once you get established, have a decent knowledge of what you're doing for Saturday night stuff decide if a newer kart is what's holding you back or if it's seat time/tire knowledge.

We were at Talladega last night for the Frost buster, one of the faster tracks in a southeast, and BeaverCreek two weeks ago for the Maxximillion race. A good buddy of ours has been running a 08 Tempest in Predator. But, they're extremely good with setup and tires. If anyone else tried it they'd be lapped before they knew it. But, he won both races at the Maxximillion race in Predator. At Talladega he qualified 4th in Heavy Predator and finished second. Medium qualified 4th finished third. A few people can take them and make them work reasonably well. But, I don't suggest most try it, lol.
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We run a 06 ultramax octane blaze in the otb class and it works great and always fast. We ran it at the frostbuster and destroyed the body and think it might have tweaked it a little
 
Ted Hamilton said:
Any chassis that lets the tires work to their maximum potential is capable of winning. Age is a non-factor. Geometry and tuning are.
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Geometry and tuning, even at 100%, is still going to be slower. A brand new 2001 Hewlett-Packard isnt going to run like a 2022 Apple...technology changes.

I've said before, there was a BIG revolution of speed spanning the years of 1990ish-2005ish. Karts were exponentially getting faster in that time period. 2006-2010ish was another time period, althought the speed gap wasnt quite as severe as the 15 years prior. From 2010 to 2022, that gap is even smaller.

That being said, I wouldnt waste my time racing ANYWHERE, unless I was on something 2010ish or newer. The cost of a 12 year old chassis is not that much more then a 20 year old chassis in today's market, no sense in setting yourself up for failure.

All these guys saying "well I won on a straight rail Margay" or "i beat lots of newer karts with my 98 Banshee" simply are not racing against anyone that has their stuff together. If someone that even remotely had their act together decided to race against you weekly, you'd be upgrading your program as quick as possible, or being content riding around mid-pack.

Probably the best "old but still competitive" chassis out there is the Phenom (2004-2006). It's still the dominate syrup and pavement kart, and in capable hands will win plenty dirt races. The problem with chassis from that time period is they were designed to get faster each lap....today's chassis are making maximum speed from lap 2 on.
 
JPMKarting said:
Geometry and tuning, even at 100%, is still going to be slower. A brand new 2001 Hewlett-Packard isnt going to run like a 2022 Apple...technology changes.

I've said before, there was a BIG revolution of speed spanning the years of 1990ish-2005ish. Karts were exponentially getting faster in that time period. 2006-2010ish was another time period, althought the speed gap wasnt quite as severe as the 15 years prior. From 2010 to 2022, that gap is even smaller.

That being said, I wouldnt waste my time racing ANYWHERE, unless I was on something 2010ish or newer. The cost of a 12 year old chassis is not that much more then a 20 year old chassis in today's market, no sense in setting yourself up for failure.

All these guys saying "well I won on a straight rail Margay" or "i beat lots of newer karts with my 98 Banshee" simply are not racing against anyone that has their stuff together. If someone that even remotely had their act together decided to race against you weekly, you'd be upgrading your program as quick as possible, or being content riding around mid-pack.

Probably the best "old but still competitive" chassis out there is the Phenom (2004-2006). It's still the dominate syrup and pavement kart, and in capable hands will win plenty dirt races. The problem with chassis from that time period is they were designed to get faster each lap....today's chassis are making maximum speed from lap 2 on.
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I was waiting on JP to chime in. 2011 or newer and work on your tire program.

Then upgrade the chassis
 
This is pretty much my experience as well, JPM. 2010 and up is my go to. Main reason is that most of the chassis from anything older will not be "newish" and have a bunch of races on them. Even if they're brand new, depending on the age as JPM said they'd potentially still be at a big disadvantage.

(Edit)
I'd love to see someone like Phantom or Ultramax build a kart from their 90's lineup, then their early 2000's, like around 05-06, then something like 2010-12ish, then race each head to head against their own chassis of the latest design. Deuce/Scythe and Exceed and Rival.

Use two drivers, run a race of like 10-15 laps using new tires on each. Swap drivers then do it again prepping for the conditions. It still wouldn't settle the debate, but it would be interesting to see how much of a gap there is between the chassis.

I know most of them wouldn't do this, as it could potentially eat into their profits, but I suspect they'd be really really against doing this for many reason.

(New Edit)
I wonder if someone was willing to foot the bill, would the manufacturers be willing to build these older chassis for the testing? They'd have to be built obviously to the old specs. But, the only way to ensure they're "new" is have them built new.
I think if the manufacturers were really confident in their chassis and not just building new chassis for the illusion they're faster, then they'd be up for building these new old style designs for someone else to test. But, I doubt they'd ever actually do it themselves.
 
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CodyH00 said:
Looking to get back into some kind of racing. Looked at legends cars and just don't see it happening. How old of a chassis is too old ? just looking to run at tri county in kenly, nc. Have a phenom or a 2012 charger i might be able to get on a deal ?
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Just read thru the first few post and most said what you were thinking of buying would be ok so without further ado and knowledge of what followed here's my thoughts.

Any chassis is ok if you know what you want and need the chassis to do for you at what ever track your going to race.
If you can't bring the chassis in to do what's needed and you know what is needed then you can stiffen, soften, add to or bend it to do what you need.
The only draw back to an older chassis is if it's so old it does not have the adjustments built into it you might or will need.

Your chassis and setup is always about how it, your tires and your adjustments cause weight to flow to and from where it's needed when it's needed along either a longer or shorter path which helps get it to where you need it at the right time.
That's it that's all you can do no matter what chassis your using or what your racing.

Weight transfers instantaneously to where the grip is allowing it to be mechanically pulled or sent towards a tire or tires and when it travels instantaneously back to where it came.
Though weight transfers instantaneously, the instantaneous part only happens "after" a mechanical action allows it to happen.

We've altered both kart and car chassis for the specific purpose to cause weight to be planted and then removed back to where it came from via specific paths to either delay or enhance it's travel. ... successfully meaning the chassis after being altered worked as intended.

What's IMHO really interesting is IMHO with any chassis you can create a separate path applying weight and a separate path returning weight.
IMHO the usual need oval racing is the return path usually needs to take a longer "slower" path back then is needed for the initial application of weight.

So is yer good deal chassis ok?
answer: unless it's a total mess and junk, its proly ok and just fine.

... maybe? ... :)
 
paulkish said:
What's IMHO really interesting is IMHO with any chassis you can create a separate path applying weight and a separate path returning weight.
IMHO the usual need oval racing is the return path usually needs to take a longer "slower" path back then is needed for the initial application of weight.
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I think it "is" possible the above quote of 'me' might get chassis manufactures beyond thinking just give them a standard run of the mill chassis because the "state of the art" is about tires and giving each tire the correct grip.
Even with the best knowledge and ability to prep a tire or tires as needed, it "IS" possible to go beyond tire prep by controlling the time it takes to transfer weight to and back to where it started.

hint chassis manufactures:
1. The too is and needs to happen where it's needed right now.
2. The from timing is either via the long way around the outside of the left front back to the left rear or a more straight route back to the rear either biased towards the right or left rear depending on available hp and grip.

3. If you never thought about how to return weight back to the left rear via going around the left front, ya need to do some thunkin on it. ... :)
4. IMHO how you deal with the from per available grip is more important to being fast then the application of weight be it low or high hp.

... or it ain't because this is all IMHO and ain't necessairly right anyway. ... :)
 
I stand by my statement -- the key is extracting performance from the tires. Your chassis can be 20 years or 2 days old, but if it has inherent structure that prevents full use of the tire, it won't win. Age doesn't matter -- design and utilization does. Track type matters. Track prep matters. Driving style matters. Driver weight matters. There are too many variables to have a definitive answer. But the key to winning is using as much of your tires as possible, every lap.
 
Ted Hamilton said:
I stand by my statement -- the key is extracting performance from the tires. Your chassis can be 20 years or 2 days old, but if it has inherent structure that prevents full use of the tire, it won't win. Age doesn't matter -- design and utilization does. Track type matters. Track prep matters. Driving style matters. Driver weight matters. There are too many variables to have a definitive answer. But the key to winning is using as much of your tires as possible, every lap.
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You can stand by your statement all you want....it doesn't make it any less incorrect.

You can extract 100% of the speed out of a 20 year old chassis, and 100% of the speed out of a 2 day old chassis. 2 Day old chassis wins, every time.

Now if you want to talk variables, then we can throw everything out the window. Yea, a 20 year old chassis will win against a 2 day old chassis.....if the 2 day old chassis has a weak engine, missed the tires by a mile, has a driver that cant drive a hot nail in to a snow mans butt, etc etc.

But if you want to talk straight up speed vs. design/evolution, I dont care if you get 100% out of a 20 year old kart...it's not going to run with a 2022.

Age is a direct correlation to design....
 
ABR #69 said:
This is pretty much my experience as well, JPM. 2010 and up is my go to. Main reason is that most of the chassis from anything older will not be "newish" and have a bunch of races on them. Even if they're brand new, depending on the age as JPM said they'd potentially still be at a big disadvantage.

(Edit)
I'd love to see someone like Phantom or Ultramax build a kart from their 90's lineup, then their early 2000's, like around 05-06, then something like 2010-12ish, then race each head to head against their own chassis of the latest design. Deuce/Scythe and Exceed and Rival.

Use two drivers, run a race of like 10-15 laps using new tires on each. Swap drivers then do it again prepping for the conditions. It still wouldn't settle the debate, but it would be interesting to see how much of a gap there is between the chassis.

I know most of them wouldn't do this, as it could potentially eat into their profits, but I suspect they'd be really really against doing this for many reason.

(New Edit)
I wonder if someone was willing to foot the bill, would the manufacturers be willing to build these older chassis for the testing? They'd have to be built obviously to the old specs. But, the only way to ensure they're "new" is have them built new.
I think if the manufacturers were really confident in their chassis and not just building new chassis for the illusion they're faster, then they'd be up for building these new old style designs for someone else to test. But, I doubt they'd ever actually do it themselves.
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The amount if time to re-tool production for an obsolete chassis is enough in itself to never make this a reality.
 
JPMKarting said:
You can stand by your statement all you want....it doesn't make it any less incorrect.

You can extract 100% of the speed out of a 20 year old chassis, and 100% of the speed out of a 2 day old chassis. 2 Day old chassis wins, every time.

Now if you want to talk variables, then we can throw everything out the window. Yea, a 20 year old chassis will win against a 2 day old chassis.....if the 2 day old chassis has a weak engine, missed the tires by a mile, has a driver that cant drive a hot nail in to a snow mans butt, etc etc.

But if you want to talk straight up speed vs. design/evolution, I dont care if you get 100% out of a 20 year old kart...it's not going to run with a 2022.
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I'm not sure you're following my line of thought. First, you look at where you're racing, and how they're prepping that surface. Midwest black dirt will have different requirements for traction than Southeastern red clay. Once the surface is known, the tire requirements can be derived. ANY combination of tubing that lets THAT TIRE work to its' fullest is then a winning chassis. Age doesn't matter, but the type, layout, and tunability of that chassis matters. So, it's possible that chassis evolution and tire evolution have occurred somewhat in concert with each other, and newer stuff is faster "in general" on a particular type of track. But engineering is ALWAYS a compromise. So, if your track is one that favors tires different than the "average" then it's entirely LIKELY that a different chassis is more ideal. Case-in-point, many favor a Nemesis still on some types of tracks, and that chassis is 20 years old... it generates a different kind of bite (eg. lets the tires work best for a different kind of track.)

I guess to summarize, the stopwatch is your best indicator for YOUR setup, but the chassis demographic of your track can be swayed by the fact that 80% of the people bought a certain brand so the odds favor it, not that its' fastest. DO YOUR HOMEWORK and get your tires working. If you can't get your chassis to use all of your tires' potential anywhere in the tuning window, either change your driving style or change your chassis. But everything's a shot in the dark unless you do your homework. Relying on factory setup numbers is riding with the herd. The winners find what works best for THEM, and it may not be what the masses are doing.
 
I believe the original question had to do with racing at your local Saturday night track.
With that said, there are some Saturday night tracks that are not very competitive and others that are very competitive. Also depends a LOT on how much grip is available in the track surface. Most Saturday night tracks, the track prep isn't stellar and car counts are relatively low, so the track never gets real "good," ie bites up hard.
I wouldn't hesitate a second to take one of our 2005 AO3 chassis to a local Saturday night track and be competitive for the win against ANY year kart. Likewise, you could take an '05 Phenom or '13 Triton and win with it locally. Seen it done regularly. Now, will those chassis be as competitive on a higher bite track with competition on later chassis? Likely not.
The evolution of kart design to accommodate higher bite (tracks and tires) has lead to running ultra-high cross and a different approach to how the weight transfers. For example, you could never plug 70%+ in an older chassis and expect it to work anywhere near what the newer chassis do.

Actually, PRC did remake some older chassis (specifically for syrup racing.) That's a whole other genre, but consider how many years the Phenom was the dominant kart on syrup tracks?

It's not about the year as much as it is matching the chassis design, spindles, tires, driving style, set-up, etc. to the track.

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Carlson Racing Engines
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Ted Hamilton said:
I'm not sure you're following my line of thought. First, you look at where you're racing, and how they're prepping that surface. Midwest black dirt will have different requirements for traction than Southeastern red clay. Once the surface is known, the tire requirements can be derived. ANY combination of tubing that lets THAT TIRE work to its' fullest is then a winning chassis. Age doesn't matter, but the type, layout, and tunability of that chassis matters. So, it's possible that chassis evolution and tire evolution have occurred somewhat in concert with each other, and newer stuff is faster "in general" on a particular type of track. But engineering is ALWAYS a compromise. So, if your track is one that favors tires different than the "average" then it's entirely LIKELY that a different chassis is more ideal. Case-in-point, many favor a Nemesis still on some types of tracks, and that chassis is 20 years old... it generates a different kind of bite (eg. lets the tires work best for a different kind of track.)

I guess to summarize, the stopwatch is your best indicator for YOUR setup, but the chassis demographic of your track can be swayed by the fact that 80% of the people bought a certain brand so the odds favor it, not that its' fastest. DO YOUR HOMEWORK and get your tires working. If you can't get your chassis to use all of your tires' potential anywhere in the tuning window, either change your driving style or change your chassis. But everything's a shot in the dark unless you do your homework. Relying on factory setup numbers is riding with the herd. The winners find what works best for THEM, and it may not be what the masses are doing.
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I'm not saying you cant win on an older chassis, in certain situations. Track grip and competition level are going to dictate your success frequency. We won over $5000 last year on a 13 year old champ kart (although champ karts are a different story in their own as far as relative age is concerned).

But if you want to remove ALL the variables, and compare apples to apples...newer stuff runs faster, period. Thats a fact that most people cant comprehend, because they won a handful of races at their local short track on a 2003 Nemesis. And there is nothing wrong with that, if you can run older stuff, older tires, etc and win, then thats all that matters.

But if you want to get into the details of chassis evolution and outright speed, this idea that an old chassis is going to run as good as quick as a new one is just plain false.
 
JPMKarting said:
But if you want to remove ALL the variables, and compare apples to apples...newer stuff runs faster, period.
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I agree. ^^^^^^^^^

The whole proly poorly made point to my long winded bull was and is about physically altering an old chassis to be what's needed "today" or at your usual Saturday night track.
 
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