Low stagger for low bite?
- Thread starter jjchat
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racing promotor
Moderator
What the kart doing that makes you sure your not loading the RR properly, how big is the track and how tight are the turns.
rebsfan4
Member
It is possible. One of out local tracks has a tendency to get slicker as the night went on. 99 out of 100 times I would just change my stagger and leave everything else as it was. That particular track has its fastest times in the first round of practice.
Charliemac115
New member
It'll deffenetly snug it up. I run 1/2-3/4 everywhere I go.It's a good way to free up straightaway speed too.
I don't really like low stagger and I wouldn't drop it on a normal size track until I'd tried pretty much everything else.
Todd
www.dynamicsofspeed.com
Todd
www.dynamicsofspeed.com
paulkish
old fart
What on track problem do you have that makes you go slower? Can you tell us more about why you loose speed? Is it that if you don't slow down the back will come around? Will it quit turning up front if you don't slow down? Will it just slide out if you don't slow down?
If your going slower your slowing down, why do you have to slow down ?
Sure per my regular BS, reducing stagger is going to reduce the difference between the surface speed of the left and right rear tires. That will make either tire less likely to slip because of a difference in surface speed> between the tires and ONLY between the tires. But that isn't all of what's going on. The rest of it is you also have to have the ability to put the necessary weight on each of the rear tires to make them work correctly. And there's not only the relationship between the left and right rear tires, there's how they relate their surface speed to the track. The radius of the track does mean something and it's easier to match up what needs done if each of your tire radius, do match up to the track. Reducing stagger if you were close, will probably hurt how your tires match up to track radius.
Ditto to what Racing Promoter asked, how do you know it's your RR that has the problem? And Ditto to what Todd said, there are a whole lot of other things to consider, before you jump in and just reduce stagger to hold the back end in... if that's what the problem is in the first place. and ???? please tell us more. ...
My first thought reading what you wrote was, hey, if everyone else gets faster and everyone else has their seat higher, ... maybe you might want to try raising your seat? (after practice, because you still want to kick butt anywhere you can to keep your place in the pecking order) Maybe if you kick butt in practice then just raise your seat and kick butt the rest of the night, everyone else will want to quit. ...
edit and ps/bs ... If your worried about not using the RR enough how is reducing stagger going to get you to use the RR more? I see it making it more likely to use the LR to hold you in and raising up the LR corner can get you more on the RR, but except for lateral bite, it about kills other uses of the LR. ... have you ever tried reverse stagger to hole it in when it gets reeeeeelll slick? That's about just trying to drag the LR across the track.
Are others you race with on less stagger later on in the race night or day? Sure reduce stagger if you want, but tell us what you expect to get from it? And I'm not saying reducing stagger won't fix your problem, it just seems to me there's a lot of other stuff to consider and try first.
If your going slower your slowing down, why do you have to slow down ?
Sure per my regular BS, reducing stagger is going to reduce the difference between the surface speed of the left and right rear tires. That will make either tire less likely to slip because of a difference in surface speed> between the tires and ONLY between the tires. But that isn't all of what's going on. The rest of it is you also have to have the ability to put the necessary weight on each of the rear tires to make them work correctly. And there's not only the relationship between the left and right rear tires, there's how they relate their surface speed to the track. The radius of the track does mean something and it's easier to match up what needs done if each of your tire radius, do match up to the track. Reducing stagger if you were close, will probably hurt how your tires match up to track radius.
Ditto to what Racing Promoter asked, how do you know it's your RR that has the problem? And Ditto to what Todd said, there are a whole lot of other things to consider, before you jump in and just reduce stagger to hold the back end in... if that's what the problem is in the first place. and ???? please tell us more. ...
My first thought reading what you wrote was, hey, if everyone else gets faster and everyone else has their seat higher, ... maybe you might want to try raising your seat? (after practice, because you still want to kick butt anywhere you can to keep your place in the pecking order) Maybe if you kick butt in practice then just raise your seat and kick butt the rest of the night, everyone else will want to quit. ...
edit and ps/bs ... If your worried about not using the RR enough how is reducing stagger going to get you to use the RR more? I see it making it more likely to use the LR to hold you in and raising up the LR corner can get you more on the RR, but except for lateral bite, it about kills other uses of the LR. ... have you ever tried reverse stagger to hole it in when it gets reeeeeelll slick? That's about just trying to drag the LR across the track.
Are others you race with on less stagger later on in the race night or day? Sure reduce stagger if you want, but tell us what you expect to get from it? And I'm not saying reducing stagger won't fix your problem, it just seems to me there's a lot of other stuff to consider and try first.
SoCo Tire Treatments
Moderator
12.25" is over 3" higher than any seat i set.
You need to give more info now that you told us that, you may be overworking the RR.
alvin l nunley
Site Supporter
Wouldn't it be easier to help this person if we knew more about his set up? Or what if we knew what track he was racing on? How about the kart brand and class? Talk about throwing darts in a dark room!
That's what everyone keeps asking him Al. He won't answer what his problem is though besides the track getting slicker and slower as the day goes on
paulkish
old fart
Right now I'm visualizing him ridding around on the RR unloading the LR like a Sprint Kart setup. Sure if your fast and on the limit of what your RR can do for you early on and others are not, later when it slicks up the pack will catch you. They'll catch you because of what SoCo Tire Treatments said, as the race day goes on you start over working the RR. I didn't know the seat height you told us was already above what's normally used. If it's true even though your's is too high, others seats are higher ... then there's a lot of other things different too.
What track is it? With the seat height thought added by SoCo, I'm now thinking it's a backyard type track with a bunch big folks ridding around in mostly sit up karts. please help us out, we like trying to help
thanks
paul
What track is it? With the seat height thought added by SoCo, I'm now thinking it's a backyard type track with a bunch big folks ridding around in mostly sit up karts. please help us out, we like trying to help
thanks
paul
racing promotor
Moderator
12.25 seat height is un-herd of for a Sr set-up and be competitive, unless it's just a backyard type race and everyone else is set-up close the same for comfort not speed, at 12.25 " seat height I would be amazed that your problem is NOT using your RR enough.
rebsfan4
Member
Me too now Ken.
Our tracks out here in the Pacific NW are very different than your high bite clay tracks. It is a strange combination of high abrasiveness and low bite. Sounds crazy I know. It is due to the amount of volcanic material in it that is very sharp, but does not hold together very well meaning the track peels off and does not build rubber. Therefore, at the beginning of the day when there is moisture, there is grip and traction but as the day goes on, the track loses grip and gets dusty. The track surface is very porous which also contributes to the difficulty in building up rubber.
How do I know I am not loading the RR and why I am slowing down:
The kart begins the day on a rail and as the track loses grip, the rear gets loose on exit. Everyone agrees that the exit gets looser of the corners as the day goes on.
What has helped so far:
Decrease left-side weight and cross: 57 Left and around 57-59 cross. Increased cross causes a push on entry and looser on exit.
Increased front stagger. About 1-3/4".
Increased seat height ; started a little above the factory recommendation at about 10".
Vega tires were much better than the Burris we have to use now. We have a no prep (at the track) rule. With the higher bite tires, the chassis was able to bite better and transfer weight.
Burris 11s versus 22 and 33. I get significantly less peeling when I use the 11's than the 22's or 33's. The tires look great through the first couple of heats but begin to peel (as the kart gets loose off) during the main. Other karts not sliding as much off the exit, same tires, look a little to a lot better.
Why reduced rear stagger:
Thinking with McCarty's viewpoint that increasing stagger slows down weight transfer (the weight has to climb the hill). Furthermore, without the bite in the track, increased stagger may not be allowing the rr to compress and unweight the lr enough. Hence the slight push at apex.
At this track, in the very competitive clone class, there are phantoms with seat height above 14". There are others even higher. But, we have to think outside the box because the track doesn't produce the bite needed for traditional mechanical weight transition.
FWIW, I had 15 years of dirt experience back in MN, IA etc... and these tracks are NOTHING like that dirt/clay.
How do I know I am not loading the RR and why I am slowing down:
The kart begins the day on a rail and as the track loses grip, the rear gets loose on exit. Everyone agrees that the exit gets looser of the corners as the day goes on.
What has helped so far:
Decrease left-side weight and cross: 57 Left and around 57-59 cross. Increased cross causes a push on entry and looser on exit.
Increased front stagger. About 1-3/4".
Increased seat height ; started a little above the factory recommendation at about 10".
Vega tires were much better than the Burris we have to use now. We have a no prep (at the track) rule. With the higher bite tires, the chassis was able to bite better and transfer weight.
Burris 11s versus 22 and 33. I get significantly less peeling when I use the 11's than the 22's or 33's. The tires look great through the first couple of heats but begin to peel (as the kart gets loose off) during the main. Other karts not sliding as much off the exit, same tires, look a little to a lot better.
Why reduced rear stagger:
Thinking with McCarty's viewpoint that increasing stagger slows down weight transfer (the weight has to climb the hill). Furthermore, without the bite in the track, increased stagger may not be allowing the rr to compress and unweight the lr enough. Hence the slight push at apex.
At this track, in the very competitive clone class, there are phantoms with seat height above 14". There are others even higher. But, we have to think outside the box because the track doesn't produce the bite needed for traditional mechanical weight transition.
FWIW, I had 15 years of dirt experience back in MN, IA etc... and these tracks are NOTHING like that dirt/clay.
XXX#40
2A supporter
I would of never increased front stagger, have you tried reverse air split when the track looses grip?
It sounds as if you problem is all about tire biting, cant prep at the track but you can roll different sets on the inside
11's not peeling and 22's and 33's peeling its like you hve the 22-33's too soft what do they duro?
It sounds as if you problem is all about tire biting, cant prep at the track but you can roll different sets on the inside
11's not peeling and 22's and 33's peeling its like you hve the 22-33's too soft what do they duro?
racing promotor
Moderator
Jamie
sounds like maybe tires are not pealing from to soft they are showing that from sliding to much, I have quite a few guy's around here come to me at our track show me tires that are not biting enough that are sliding to much that they think are to soft and pealing.
XXX#40
2A supporter
Yeah that is also an option, hard to tell when I cant look at them, peeling and feathering is two different things.
Thats why the Vegas worked, he's needs to prep at home during the week for bite, and if it were me I would soften the 33's, then prep for bite
Peeling is probably a better description. The harder the tire, the more peeling. However, there is a very fine line on tire softening due to the abrasiveness of the track. Unsoftened 11's tend to hold up better than softened 11's. As a matter of fact, the karts that race me the hardest are untreated.
I hope I have established a couple key ideas:
This track is VERY low bite and high abrasiveness.
The track LOSES grip as it hardens and the day goes on.
As the track loses grip, my kart begins to get loose of and slides up a little off the corner and costs me a little time.
I have tried many other strategies that have helped, unfortunately I have also helped my friends who have had success.
I have a set-up that is fast and I am always very competitive.
Back to the original question and reasoning:
Will decreasing rear stagger load the right rear on exit a little more?
I hope I have established a couple key ideas:
This track is VERY low bite and high abrasiveness.
The track LOSES grip as it hardens and the day goes on.
As the track loses grip, my kart begins to get loose of and slides up a little off the corner and costs me a little time.
I have tried many other strategies that have helped, unfortunately I have also helped my friends who have had success.
I have a set-up that is fast and I am always very competitive.
Back to the original question and reasoning:
Will decreasing rear stagger load the right rear on exit a little more?
XXX 40
The reason for increasing front stagger was to limit weight transitioning from the LR to the RF and put the weight on the RR. This picked up almost .2 tenths.
The 11's and 22's work a little better as a result of the softer spring rate of the sidewall. A 33 on the RF works all right but amplifies the problem on the RR even if it is softer than an 11 and is treated for bite.
The reason for increasing front stagger was to limit weight transitioning from the LR to the RF and put the weight on the RR. This picked up almost .2 tenths.
The 11's and 22's work a little better as a result of the softer spring rate of the sidewall. A 33 on the RF works all right but amplifies the problem on the RR even if it is softer than an 11 and is treated for bite.
XXX#40
2A supporter
less air will correct the spring rate.
Adding front stagger also hinders weight from going thru its cycle, you hinder it from the RF you also hinder what is transferred to the RR at apex
More caster equally will also increase rear grip at exit