Low stagger for low bite?

Front = 46
Left 57
Cross 57-59

When I have added front, I tend to get a push on entry. I have thought about reducing nose for later in the day, but am concerned that there isn't enough mechanical transfer to unload increased LR weight.

Pressures -RS 6-7 with one pound to 1.5 pound split.

Something else we have done with effectiveness is to run narrow rims. I run a 9.5 rather than a 10 on the RS.
 
jjchat said:
Front = 46
Left 57
Cross 57-59

When I have added front, I tend to get a push on entry. I have thought about reducing nose for later in the day, but am concerned that there isn't enough mechanical transfer to unload increased LR weight.

Pressures -RS 6-7 with one pound to 1.5 pound split.

Something else we have done with effectiveness is to run narrow rims. I run a 9.5 rather than a 10 on the RS.
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Drop the air, too much IMO
 
With all that's been said I can see why you want the narrower right side rims and softer sidewalls (they should cause the tire to roll over on its self easier which can cause it to bite harder but that's only to a certain point before it will actually do the opposite and cause it to become loose), the setup is interesting and I was surprised when you said that increasing cross created push on entry, that's completely opposite of what should happen.

I'd say start the seat back at 10 inches off the axle
set front stagger at 1.5 inches, rear stagger at 3/4 inches
left side at 55 percent (more static right side should help)
nose at 46 percent
cross at 58 percent.
not sure on the spring rates of 22's but if they're softer than the 33's then I'd prep them down to what the 11's duro out of the wrapper, and work them to add bite
instead of 5 psi try 4 psi right off the bat all the way around.

I'm not so sure that you need the seat 12+ inches off the axle to get the kart to respond and create enough bite to not get loose on exit.
 
Andy Owens said:
Million dollar question. What chassis are you riding?
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while this is important; most chassis made from 2006 - present will all run similar base line setup numbers, it's all in how they need the tires tailored to them nowadays. I can run near identical numbers on a 2006 T/O Apex as I can on a 2013 T/O Redemption, the difference here is that I could never run the same tire programs between them they both work the tires differently.

So while many people have been putting some numbers out there for him to try, they are not wrong.
We do need to know the chassis though to better give tire information to him.
 
How bout before you go changing all kinds of stuff, you just do as you was thinking in the first place. You weren't off base with your idea. Before it's all said and done you will have been told to change tires, change prep, change percentages, change set up. You will have changed SO much stuff you will have no idea what was the wrong thing IF by chance things do not help.

This is so simple and it just blows my mind how things get so blown out of proportion by over analization. Increase air to the LR. Decrease air to the RR OR just swap the air pressure in the two rear tires.

IF this helps then you can start making adjustments to the kart that will help weight transfer to the RR more effeciently. I think you wil be surprise at just how effective simple logic can sometimes be. Most of the time is made to be way over complicated here.
 
Phantom Phenom.

Agreed Bryan, I will not be changing a lot. I have won two mains and runner up in another. When switching from Vegas (when I was dominant) to Burris this year, I have struggled a little bit, at times, on exit. I will be as much as 3-4 tenths faster in hot laps and the first heat and be a half tenth to tenth of in the main. Just thinking about small adjustments to compensate. We are looking for a tenth or two, get a little more forward bite off the corner and not slip up the track.

I know the seat height freaks everyone out and all I can say is you have never run on a surface like this. I started with Phantoms recommended set-up and it just didn't work. There are two other phantoms I work with and we all found the same results, although theirs are higher yet. They are the only ones who can run with me.
 
While the track I mentioned above is not abbrassive at all, I do understand what it's like to be on a track that gets slicker or worse as the night goes on instead of better. On that particular track I simply reduced overall stagger 1/8 of an inch by feature time at the LR. Sometimes a little more if it got real bad. Doesn't seem like much ,but when done with air it has a fairly pronounced affect on things overall. AND it's a simple adjustment to just try for the heck of it to see it works or at least helps.

I'm not saying that things can't be fixed better with a proper in depth overhaul of the chassis and tires, but why start there? You are already out front with what you have. No need to do anything that can possibly put you a lap down.

My suggestion is to stick with your kart as you know it and your gut as you feel it. My other suggestion would be a slightly larger LR tire come feature time or simply use air at the track to increase the LR tire diameter.

You can make many different changes, but a change in stagger, as you are thinking, does a few things all at once within itself. All of them being ever so slight. So slight, in fact, that many will argue they are so suttle to even have made a difference. It's when all of the suttlenesses are combined that you notice the difference. :)

It may not make a bit of difference in the world. But until you put an idea to test, it is still just an idea. :)
 
rebsfan4 said:
While the track I mentioned above is not abbrassive at all, I do understand what it's like to be on a track that gets slicker or worse as the night goes on instead of better. On that particular track I simply reduced overall stagger 1/8 of an inch by feature time at the LR. Sometimes a little more if it got real bad. Doesn't seem like much ,but when done with air it has a fairly pronounced affect on things overall. AND it's a simple adjustment to just try for the heck of it to see it works or at least helps.

I'm not saying that things can't be fixed better with a proper in depth overhaul of the chassis and tires, but why start there? You are already out front with what you have. No need to do anything that can possibly put you a lap down.

My suggestion is to stick with your kart as you know it and your gut as you feel it. My other suggestion would be a slightly larger LR tire come feature time or simply use air at the track to increase the LR tire diameter.

You can make many different changes, but a change in stagger, as you are thinking, does a few things all at once within itself. All of them being ever so slight. So slight, in fact, that many will argue they are so suttle to even have made a difference. It's when all of the suttlenesses are combined that you notice the difference. :)

It may not make a bit of difference in the world. But until you put an idea to test, it is still just an idea. :)
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Agree 100% but keep in mind he's saying go BELOW 1/2" think about how many runs you have made with 1/2" of stagger or less.
 
racing promotor said:
Agree 100% but keep in mind he's saying go BELOW 1/2" think about how many runs you have made with 1/2" of stagger or less.
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I understand. Thats why I say start at 1/8 less stagger at the LR. Increase by 1/8 increments if it seems to help the situation and do so until situation is resolved. Then check everything on the scales and go from there. On the track I mentioned, I was able to pattern what the track was going to do throughout the different season changes we faced and I knew exactly where to start my stagger and what stagger I would end up on. I never changed anything but stagger. And won regularly. Just keeping it simple.

And on the same note.....how many have been on Pacific NE tracks as he speaks of? It may work. At the very least it may work for him. Who's to say just because that's not what happens within the norm of most our world of karting as we know it, that it might not be plausible in his situation. That's not to say I would go to these extremes all at once. But I have been on very low stagger and had it work. Of course I had faniggled with the axle lead.... :)
 
rebsfan4 said:
I understand. Thats why I say start at 1/8 less stagger at the LR. Increase by 1/8 increments if it seems to help the situation and do so until situation is resolved. Then check everything on the scales and go from there. On the track I mentioned, I was able to pattern what the track was going to do throughout the different season changes we faced and I knew exactly where to start my stagger and what stagger I would end up on. I never changed anything but stagger. And won regularly. Just keeping it simple.

And on the same note.....how many have been on Pacific NE tracks as he speaks of? It may work. At the very least it may work for him. Who's to say just because that's not what happens within the norm of most our world of karting as we know it, that it might not be plausible in his situation. That's not to say I would go to these extremes all at once. But I have been on very low stagger and had it work. Of course I had faniggled with the axle lead.... :)
Click to expand...
While gathering setup info for the Helix when it was in test. pre release, the setups that came from that area where all of the place, I wondered how some of them worked but they did
 
I've never raced on a dirt oval but I have this spreadsheet for weight distribution and when people list their percentages I like to see what they look like in the spreadsheet. I did this with yours and I notice that the LR is lighter than most people use. Not that there's any consensus on how much the LR should weigh, (the numbers I see are all over the place) but as a general observation, most are 20% to 30% more than yours. Some even higher. And, not knowing for sure, depending on the castor, that LR is going to get lighter as you turn the front wheels, thus putting even more weight on your RR.
Have you ever checked the RR tire temp? I have a spreadsheet for that too. lol
Another thing I have noticed; nobody seems to know their track statistics! Many know about how long their track is, but few ever list the turn radius. And even fewer know, if the turns have banking, what the degree of banking is.
I find it interesting that people can give setup information with only knowing the length of the track.
 
rebsfan4 said:
I understand. Thats why I say start at 1/8 less stagger at the LR. Increase by 1/8 increments if it seems to help the situation and do so until situation is resolved. Then check everything on the scales and go from there. On the track I mentioned, I was able to pattern what the track was going to do throughout the different season changes we faced and I knew exactly where to start my stagger and what stagger I would end up on. I never changed anything but stagger. And won regularly. Just keeping it simple.

And on the same note.....how many have been on Pacific NE tracks as he speaks of? It may work. At the very least it may work for him. Who's to say just because that's not what happens within the norm of most our world of karting as we know it, that it might not be plausible in his situation. That's not to say I would go to these extremes all at once. But I have been on very low stagger and had it work. Of course I had faniggled with the axle lead.... :)
Click to expand...

AGREE 100% keep it simple I would try Air and stagger first, but in that order as well, Funny you mention I was gonna comment with your experience I bet you tweaked axle lead as well.
 
XXX#40 said:
While gathering setup info for the Helix when privilegesest. pre release, the setups that came from that area where all of the place, I wondered how some of them worked but they did
Click to expand...

I remember the Helix being fond of some strange set ups. :)

Of course that's from seeing what was posted here. I never had the privilege of working with the Helix. My experience stopped at the Epic.
 
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