wilkerson99
New member
Did I miss a post about camber settings and rear wheel spacing off frame? Kinda curious as to what helps. Never know where you maybe racing..
Low stagger for low bite?
- Thread starter jjchat
- Start date
racing promotor
Moderator
No you did not miss that very little info was given, just the Air pressure changes alone will definitely help running 1lb and worse 1.5lb slits on a surface like mentioned don't cut it.
rebsfan4
Member
He said he was in the Pacific NW. That narrows it down to somewhere up in the FAR NW portion of the US of A. Why suggest anything other than what he specifically ask about? He's winning. He's just not winning by as much as he was before the tire change. He is just looking to tweak things. He looking to get those couple of tenths back on his lead that he was most comfortable with. There's no need to rebuild the kart under him.
XXX#40
2A supporter
As soon as I seen the air pressure's that was a dead giveaway
rebsfan4
Member
While I appreciate the info about tire pressures and other concerns, ultimately I was asking a question about the effects of stagger (in this case reducing stagger) on the effects of weight transfer to the right rear.
I wasn't interested in sharing alot of info as I knew the set-ups would be unbelievable for some of you. Sorry. I was more curious to some discussion on the effects of staggar.
For those who are curious:
Location of track: Salem Oregon.
Rear width 39" - 39 1/4"
RR about 1/8" of the rail.
I wasn't interested in sharing alot of info as I knew the set-ups would be unbelievable for some of you. Sorry. I was more curious to some discussion on the effects of staggar.
For those who are curious:
Location of track: Salem Oregon.
Rear width 39" - 39 1/4"
RR about 1/8" of the rail.
MercerEngineering
New member
The Overall effect of reducing stagger will decrease load on the RR and increase or share load to the LR . Both from decreased loading through an increase of cross as well as decreased loading induced from forward thrust of the "Drive Tires" and the effect of rollout differential on them. You see as the rear tires are trying to drive the kart up out of the corner , the more closely the rollout of each tire is ( closer to zero stagger) the more equally the load created from forward thrust will be applied to the rear tires. For example: in a case of more rear stagger, the smaller the LR is in comparison to the RR , we know that it travels a shorter distance for a given number of revolutions than the RR. This creates some what of a breaking or dragging effect at the LR. The RR has to overcome this to propel the kart in a straight line (late exit) now that the RR is getting less help from the LR ( or in some cases direct opposition ) the Load or (resistance to movement ) is concentrated at the RR.
Another effect of more rear stagger that has to be considered is a slight change in chassis heights in both front to back and side to side rake, as well as a small change in the avg. rear roll center or Center of gravity height. In this scenario the lower RR height takes rake out from front to back and left to right at the rear. Lower rear can increase transfer in a front to back motion, but the lower cg or rear roll center height cancels this effect out for the most part reducing transfer from left to right.
So in a nutshell less rear stagger equals less RR load
Another effect of more rear stagger that has to be considered is a slight change in chassis heights in both front to back and side to side rake, as well as a small change in the avg. rear roll center or Center of gravity height. In this scenario the lower RR height takes rake out from front to back and left to right at the rear. Lower rear can increase transfer in a front to back motion, but the lower cg or rear roll center height cancels this effect out for the most part reducing transfer from left to right.
So in a nutshell less rear stagger equals less RR load
SoCo Tire Treatments
Moderator
Bryan, we all needed a tenth or 2 before when we ran at local tracks, BUT look what happened when we ventured off, a full second off. Why not and try to help with the overall set up? Why try to pick up a tenth when theres possible a second to be gained?
Just my thoughts on the matter, i hate leaving speed on the table..lol.
rebsfan4
Member
All of that^^^^^^......is why you make the reduction in stagger at the LR.....not the RR.
SoCo Tire Treatments
Moderator
But his first post he asked for thoughts, thinking he wasnt loading the RR.
If he asked in his first what he said in his last, i wouldnt have said what i did.
paulkish
old fart
"While I appreciate the info about tire pressures and other concerns, ultimately I was asking a question about the effects of stagger (in this case reducing stagger) on the effects of weight transfer to the right rear."
A reduction(any change) in stagger does three things and only three things.
1. It changes ride height.
2. It changed the difference in tire surface speed between the left ad right rear tires.
3. It changes the potential for the right and/or left rear tires to slip or grip.
Explaining 1 through 3 a little more.
1. When you change ride height at any corner, it effects a lot of things as explained by MercerEngineering and more. Weather or not the ride height change will effect performance out on the track depends on all the things it effects. But it does change ride height.
2. It is exactly as written above. By definition stagger is a change in roll out or the difference in circumference between the right and left rear tires. There's no need to consider it's definition when answering what it effects.
3. There is another relationship changing stagger alters in addition to the surface speed between the two rear tires. A change also alters the relationship of the surface speed of each rear tire, to how fast each rear tire as part of the whole vehicle is traveling across the track. It's how that relationship effects grip, that also is effected by stagger. How tires interact with the track slip angles and slip ratio's, can also be looked at in terms of their potential to either grip or slip. When you make an adjustment any adjustment which changes anything, it either moves a tire towards the ability to grip or towards the ability to slip. The ability to grip or slip could be defined in terms of slip angle and slip ratio. It could but it can't, because of your ability to measure each and define what each is doing. Because of that the best you or me can do is to know the potential for change and the direction of change in terms of slip or grip.
So after all that what happens or is likely to happen because of potential, when a smaller LR tire is put on? Well, it's going to lower the ride height at the LR corner. If you lower weight at the LR corner then it's going to take a little more effort to get LR corner weight statically moving. Once moving the dynamic transfer will still be instantaneous, but it will take more effort to start the process. Then once the process is started the direction dynamic weight will want to travel will be more straight out to the right away from the RR tire contact patch. Also because the LR corner has been lowered by the stagger change, there will be more weight on the LR. So putting the smaller tire on the LR not only lowered weight and altered the direction dynamic weight from the LR corner will travel, it also put more weight at the LR corner. How all the changes will effect things depends on the total change and what follows.
What follows is the change also increased the difference in surface speed between the right and left rear tires. It moved the LR tires potential toward slipping, but it only did so based on how weight is effecting the LR tire and hp is effecting the LR tire. ... I have to stop because all of this is meaningless unless you can relate all of this, to how close or how far away you are to using your tires at their limit of grip. sorry ... I hope you see it but I really don't think many other then myself, see it. ... All of what you do shifts how you direct weight from the left to the right and from right to left. And the shift all depends on where your are to begin with.
You asked, "While I appreciate the info about tire pressures and other concerns, ultimately I was asking a question about the effects of stagger (in this case reducing stagger) on the effects of weight transfer to the right rear.". IMHO your question cannot be answered. It can't be answered because the effects of a stagger change will change, depending on available grip, available hp and on track performance.
I think what you want someone to say is it will free the back end up and transfer less weight to the RR. But that's not what will always happen.
a ha ... I have an answer for you. Answer: It will effect the general direction of weight heading across the chassis, more towards horizontal. But even that isn't correct unless we know where weight was to begin with. ...
I don't see any possible specific answer for your question. If you were not looking for a specific answer, then I hope my general BS offered additional thoughts on it. ?????? or it didn't and it was all just wrong
A reduction(any change) in stagger does three things and only three things.
1. It changes ride height.
2. It changed the difference in tire surface speed between the left ad right rear tires.
3. It changes the potential for the right and/or left rear tires to slip or grip.
Explaining 1 through 3 a little more.
1. When you change ride height at any corner, it effects a lot of things as explained by MercerEngineering and more. Weather or not the ride height change will effect performance out on the track depends on all the things it effects. But it does change ride height.
2. It is exactly as written above. By definition stagger is a change in roll out or the difference in circumference between the right and left rear tires. There's no need to consider it's definition when answering what it effects.
3. There is another relationship changing stagger alters in addition to the surface speed between the two rear tires. A change also alters the relationship of the surface speed of each rear tire, to how fast each rear tire as part of the whole vehicle is traveling across the track. It's how that relationship effects grip, that also is effected by stagger. How tires interact with the track slip angles and slip ratio's, can also be looked at in terms of their potential to either grip or slip. When you make an adjustment any adjustment which changes anything, it either moves a tire towards the ability to grip or towards the ability to slip. The ability to grip or slip could be defined in terms of slip angle and slip ratio. It could but it can't, because of your ability to measure each and define what each is doing. Because of that the best you or me can do is to know the potential for change and the direction of change in terms of slip or grip.
So after all that what happens or is likely to happen because of potential, when a smaller LR tire is put on? Well, it's going to lower the ride height at the LR corner. If you lower weight at the LR corner then it's going to take a little more effort to get LR corner weight statically moving. Once moving the dynamic transfer will still be instantaneous, but it will take more effort to start the process. Then once the process is started the direction dynamic weight will want to travel will be more straight out to the right away from the RR tire contact patch. Also because the LR corner has been lowered by the stagger change, there will be more weight on the LR. So putting the smaller tire on the LR not only lowered weight and altered the direction dynamic weight from the LR corner will travel, it also put more weight at the LR corner. How all the changes will effect things depends on the total change and what follows.
What follows is the change also increased the difference in surface speed between the right and left rear tires. It moved the LR tires potential toward slipping, but it only did so based on how weight is effecting the LR tire and hp is effecting the LR tire. ... I have to stop because all of this is meaningless unless you can relate all of this, to how close or how far away you are to using your tires at their limit of grip. sorry ... I hope you see it but I really don't think many other then myself, see it. ... All of what you do shifts how you direct weight from the left to the right and from right to left. And the shift all depends on where your are to begin with.
You asked, "While I appreciate the info about tire pressures and other concerns, ultimately I was asking a question about the effects of stagger (in this case reducing stagger) on the effects of weight transfer to the right rear.". IMHO your question cannot be answered. It can't be answered because the effects of a stagger change will change, depending on available grip, available hp and on track performance.
I think what you want someone to say is it will free the back end up and transfer less weight to the RR. But that's not what will always happen.
a ha ... I have an answer for you. Answer: It will effect the general direction of weight heading across the chassis, more towards horizontal. But even that isn't correct unless we know where weight was to begin with. ...
I don't see any possible specific answer for your question. If you were not looking for a specific answer, then I hope my general BS offered additional thoughts on it. ?????? or it didn't and it was all just wrong
paulkish
old fart
What any change will do is all about potential and from where your starting. The further away from a defined starting place you get, the further away from an accurate potential, your answer will be.
Different folks who answer look at the potential change from different starting points and different vantages. Mine's somewhere off in the clouds, the view of others will be more down to earth. ...
Different folks who answer look at the potential change from different starting points and different vantages. Mine's somewhere off in the clouds, the view of others will be more down to earth. ...
paulkish
old fart
"I wasn't interested in sharing a lot of info as I knew the set-ups would be unbelievable for some of you. Sorry. I was more curious to some discussion on the effects of stagger."
I don't know enough about specific setups to consider any setup unbelievable. I always believe what you say. If I see something that doesn't jive I'll ask about it for clarification, not out of disbelief. I look at what you say in terms of how I understand tires work and how I understand they must interact with the track to be fast.
___________________________________
Ya know... in my reply I got this thread mixed up with another one, but I'm leaving all the junk I wrote anyway, cause it may be fun to thunk about. ...
I don't know enough about specific setups to consider any setup unbelievable. I always believe what you say. If I see something that doesn't jive I'll ask about it for clarification, not out of disbelief. I look at what you say in terms of how I understand tires work and how I understand they must interact with the track to be fast.
___________________________________
Ya know... in my reply I got this thread mixed up with another one, but I'm leaving all the junk I wrote anyway, cause it may be fun to thunk about. ...
paulkish
old fart
Your original question was:
I think when considering exit, it will move you towards using the RR more.
... heck, that was easy ...
I think when considering exit, it will move you towards using the RR more.
... heck, that was easy ...
how are you measuring seat height? what points do you measure from and to? thanks
racing promotor
Moderator
Off top of Rear axle up to top of seat back , Avg measurement for a Sr Class would be say around 8.75 "