Track Tac

Lowering Cross is the only way to find speed...

CarlsonMotorsports said:
OP, You say that she's good from center off, but not on entry.
To me, that suggests that this may not be a chassis problem, but rather gearing (or possibly roll speed.)
Being fast @ exit and slow on entry (assuming she's running it in without lifting) tells me you may need to drop a tooth or two of rear gear. You could also go up 1 tooth on driver and up 2 on rear gear and see if that helps on the big end some.
Going up on air will fix the roll speed issue (if it's that or she'd locked down.)




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oh no, she definitely has to lift into the corner. These are generally 1/8 mile and shorter tracks we run... some we dominate, some we just do okay. She won 2 championships and placed 2nd at the track I am referring to for daytime racing... however, we didn't miss a race and stacked up points too. there's 2 drivers that are faster than us that didn't make all races.
 
Lily Smith Racing said:
Wow,
Lemme start by saying thank you to everyone for the responses. My question all started because we've actually got another kart to run our clone motors without re-scaling weekly from what we usually run up here (predator with stock gas tank in place due to local rules). We now have the '18 and a '21. The 18 will be the clone chassis and the 21 our clone. Apparently the only real change that matters between the two is that more cross was built into the 2020+ chassis.
We are going to re-set the seats to the point of touching the body on the left side and have seriously considered moving them up physically higher to help with weight transfer as I believe this is a good starting point. I too do not want to throw 10 changes at the karts and then not know what has worked/not worked. I do know that she has gained 6# so we're just over 60# consistently. My 1st goal is to get the L side corrected. 2nd is to get her slightly higher. Was planning to start the season on the LOW side of mfg recommended cross and send it... See where we are.
My daughter is not an aggressive driver so to answer questions about letting off and such, no... she doesn't with an open or gapped space, however she's also not going to show another driver her nose, or even push the envelope in a white flag situation... That said, we're actually quite fast... just give up space on entry and have to get it back everywhere else. Driver development and sticking her nose in when necessary is something to work towards as a goal after I get the chassis working correctly/consistently. I want to find that entry speed so that we can just gap the field (as I'm sure everyone else does) and check out from there.
Tires - have we tried our night time tires at the day race, yes. I've also had another tire guy do up a set specifically for that track - they suck for us yet another (very good blue plate racer) has the same exact tire for that track and practically laps the field.
I'm wondering if I'm locking her down and thus requiring me to neutralize the numbers to account for too much tire bite? I'm not trying to chase the numbers so much as I don't want to fight the chassis which should be inherently free from its design. The last thing I want to do is put a band-aid on what should already be a good piece of equipment. If it's as simple as I'm over-prepping that'd be helpful.
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Bottom of seat 1 inch higher than the frame raises, and the back 9.5 off the axle.
Any weight added to the seat mount it higher on the seat.
This is why I hate 1 ⅛ chassis, but they gotta sell karts so they push anything to do it.
 
XXX#40 said:
Bottom of seat 1 inch higher than the frame raises, and the back 9.5 off the axle.
Any weight added to the seat mount it higher on the seat.
This is why I hate 1 ⅛ chassis, but they gotta sell karts so they push anything to do it.
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Not gonna lie, it's not easy finding places to mount weights high on a rookie seat... take a look at how small they are next time you're at the track - crazy.
As for chassis, it is full size tube, just wall thickness is smaller... you can't tell the difference between a prodigy and a prodigy cadet by looks
 
racing promotor said:
Confirmation your running same tires as night racing for day racing ? What does entry no mean ? Is most all her experience night racing ?
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our slowest point on the track is entry to apex. would like to correct this. as I get no feedback from my 10yr old its a guessing game as to whether she's afraid tires won't bite or if she's just being to careful. Fast everywhere else. Can't figure out why we need to be so neutral on setup... I'm thinking i'm overprepping but don't want her to be sliding either... definitely prefers a tighter setup... which I would have thought cross would help with... it does but we slow down.
 
Lily Smith Racing said:
Not gonna lie, it's not easy finding places to mount weights high on a rookie seat... take a look at how small they are next time you're at the track - crazy.
As for chassis, it is full size tube, just wall thickness is smaller... you can't tell the difference between a prodigy and a prodigy cadet by looks
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Still don't need thin wall, thin wall may have advantages in certain situations, but a 095 will be better rounded.
We still run a chassis design that hasn't changed since 2006, with a 1⅜ rs rail
I know about rookie seats, we've been kart racing for 23 years.
I worked for a chassis builder for 11 years, we were also sponsored by the same chassis company, mount as high as possible on the thigh, and up high on the back
 
I would keep the prep game the same for now and tell her to drive it in there like her hair is on fire... Tell her if she spins out it is ok. Send her out in hotlaps and tell her to drive like a maniac. Piss her off before she goes out, I honestly think you need to add more aggression to the setup more than anything else.
 
XXX#40 said:
Still don't need thin wall, thin wall may have advantages in certain situations, but a 095 will be better rounded.
We still run a chassis design that hasn't changed since 2006, with a 1⅜ rs rail
I know about rookie seats, we've been kart racing for 23 years.
I worked for a chassis builder for 11 years, we were also sponsored by the same chassis company, mount as high as possible on the thigh, and up high on the back
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I don't doubt that you're right as we are beating and getting beat by any tube chassis. My original thought was that a thin wall would give me exactly what i'm lacking (I think) which is weight transfer with the string bean of a driver that I have. Its not that I am by any means an expert, I just went with my gut and to a newer racer it made sense to me that it would have a benefit in our situation. I may have been wrong, but at this point I already had what I had and feel that it IS a good chassis, and preferred to keep the same for reasons of spare parts, generally the same setups, etc.
Big question: if tires are over-prepped, (obviously locking you/us down) the easy solution is to free it up by reducing cross correct? If that is true then is there also the chance that we are getting TOO much bite?
Charger #s

JR. 1 PLATE CLASSES:​

  • Left Side Weight: 54%
  • Rear Weight: 55%
  • Cross Weight: 62% - 65%
  • Stagger: 1/2" to 3/4" rear and 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" front
  • Camber: 2.25° split (For example: 0.25° positive left front and 2.75° negative RF)
We're at:
LS 52.5%
RW 54%
Cross 57%
Stagger 1.5 & 1.5 (for most tracks)
Camber 0 & 2.125-2.25
 
Lily Smith Racing said:
I don't doubt that you're right as we are beating and getting beat by any tube chassis. My original thought was that a thin wall would give me exactly what i'm lacking (I think) which is weight transfer with the string bean of a driver that I have. Its not that I am by any means an expert, I just went with my gut and to a newer racer it made sense to me that it would have a benefit in our situation. I may have been wrong, but at this point I already had what I had and feel that it IS a good chassis, and preferred to keep the same for reasons of spare parts, generally the same setups, etc.
Big question: if tires are over-prepped, (obviously locking you/us down) the easy solution is to free it up by reducing cross correct? If that is true then is there also the chance that we are getting TOO much bite?
Charger #s

JR. 1 PLATE CLASSES:​

  • Left Side Weight: 54%
  • Rear Weight: 55%
  • Cross Weight: 62% - 65%
  • Stagger: 1/2" to 3/4" rear and 1-1/4" to 1-1/2" front
  • Camber: 2.25° split (For example: 0.25° positive left front and 2.75° negative RF)
We're at:
LS 52.5%
RW 54%
Cross 57%
Stagger 1.5 & 1.5 (for most tracks)
Camber 0 & 2.125-2.25
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Your only problem is entry correct?
If you are locked down you will have higher engine temperatures.
Don't agree with the camber split they have listed.
You need some LF camber.
 
XXX#40 said:
Your only problem is entry correct?
If you are locked down you will have higher engine temperatures.
Don't agree with the camber split they have listed.
You need some LF camber.
Click to expand...
had it as high as -1. doesn't seem to make a difference and based on tire marking I don't think she's got enough weight to roll the stiff sidewall of the vega. I'm going to take both karts to Mike Dickerson and have him do his thing. Hoping that is the answer.
 
Lily Smith Racing said:
our slowest point on the track is entry to apex. would like to correct this. as I get no feedback from my 10yr old its a guessing game as to whether she's afraid tires won't bite or if she's just being to careful. Fast everywhere else. Can't figure out why we need to be so neutral on setup... I'm thinking i'm overprepping but don't want her to be sliding either... definitely prefers a tighter setup... which I would have thought cross would help with... it does but we slow down.
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Is it pushing on entry ? Or handling good just no speed ?
 
racing promotor said:
Is it pushing on entry ? Or handling good just no speed ?
Click to expand...
With lower cross, neither... With cross up, it lacks speed... Off too
XXX#40 said:
Another sign of VGC too low.
Mike will get it lined out.
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My thoughts as well and get the left side we lack. I really think that (aside from tires) her very small frame lacks the mass to transfer weight properly. Very cool guy and I've definitely picked his brain enough that it's past time to put some money in his pocket... The 2.5hr trip and the constant influx of new karts for him to put together has been delaying our getting together is all. Gonna take it to the pro then give it to the kid and say run the piss out of it... Hopefully we'll see good results.
 
Lily Smith Racing said:
With lower cross, neither... With cross up, it lacks speed... Off too

My thoughts as well and get the left side we lack. I really think that (aside from tires) her very small frame lacks the mass to transfer weight properly. Very cool guy and I've definitely picked his brain enough that it's past time to put some money in his pocket... The 2.5hr trip and the constant influx of new karts for him to put together has been delaying our getting together is all. Gonna take it to the pro then give it to the kid and say run the piss out of it... Hopefully we'll see good results.
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Mike was at my track regular years ago with the Smith Brothers of SBR.
When you talk to him ask him about rolling his suburban and trailer....funny story
 
J'-remy said:
what tire pressures are you running? you can free up a kart and increase speed with upping pressure. lower will help lock it down. knowing your pressure game is in someways as valuable as the the prep
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Tire pressure 5L 6R typically. At wet/bullring (where she's fast) with a softer set of Vegas we run as low as 3&4 but usually go up to as high as 5&6 on the right nite
 
Lily Smith Racing said:
Tire pressure 5L 6R typically. At wet/bullring (where she's fast) with a softer set of Vegas we run as low as 3&4 but usually go up to as high as 5&6 on the right nite
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I personally run 7.75 on the right and sometimes more (9psi). I do not understand running on flat tires. people will tell you its ok for predator not for clone as if the chassis or tires are somehow different. 375 predator is doing equal to or better than the 425 clone guys and typically a second or less lap times for the same weight. kid speeds are way below our lap times or weight. your gonna hear I'm wrong but it works for me. if my rear end is tight I just pump up the rears. I have shaved a half a second doing it in the past. it frees up the kart and its faster down the straight. don't knock it till you try it.
 
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