No Vintage Enduro's at Mid Ohio or Gratten... Thanks Dart Kart Club

Thank You everyone for your support and understanding.
To all you guys who we did get in the way, I applogize to you for the Vintage Guys..
We have some issues with some Vintage karters and it did need addressed.
I make no excuses for this problem, other than, there are those who park their karts in every class..
Let me start by say that Gene Davis called me last Sunday.
The conversation started off tense but after a few minutes, I believe we both found out we were not enemies.
We discussed problems and defended our points of view like 2 gentlemen.
That does not mean we agreed but mean we both had our chance to discuss somethings.
Jack, of all the Clubs I have been involved in (and I am a current DKC Member) and all the Clubs I have been an Officer of, an Officer or a Trustee must be able to stand up for what they believe and not become a "Yes" man. I am NOT saying that you are, but for the Board to act as a group it should have gotten more information from those involved so a correct decision could have been made..
You said you were not familiar with Vintage karts and had no problem with them. I can believe that.
Every sidewinder Vintage kart would pass the WKA Chassis tech. I ask every vintage owner to check their karts and everyone replied that there did.
In June, brakes came under scrutiny with WKA and DKC.. Apparently you were not aware that every kart was looked at and only 1 did not come up legal.
That was a rear engine kart. The internal expansion brake was looked at and the owner of the kart was allowed to run and he went and changed those brakes to disk for 2014.
All Sidewinder karts had 2 separate brake systems, everything was pinned, both systems functioned as it was suppose to.
So, out of 12 entries, 1 was at fault.
Gene and I talked about the number of complaints DKC got about Vintage karts "parking it" IN TURNS
I asked Gene if any Vintage racers ever came to any DKC Board and complained about other racers.
He said, not that he knew of.
I agreed with him. Because we don't.. Most of us are well over 40 and have been running enduros far longer than many current racers...
Not to pick on any Class, but I was punched off the track by a TAG going onto Thunder Valley and had the bottom of my right tank tore open.
I was in the groove and was hit that hard. A Shifter kart stuffed it under another Vintage karter and buckled in their tank.
A 4-cycle Sit up, drove under me going under the Honda bridge and I had 2 wheels on the inside rumble strip, and I jerked away from him as he drove off shaking his head like I was wrong...
And there are other complaints we could have brought to the DKC Board. We never did..
My point here is we accept that we are out there running as fast as we can and appreciated DKC allowing us to run at Mid Ohio..
Yet because we did run up and complain to the DKC Board, I feel like they felt we are the ones doing the wrong and the complaining racers are right.
We never once caused an accident, had any insurance claims, run anyone off the track but we did get repeated compliments on our courtesy on the track.
We were more apt to pull over and let the Class karts go by.
Jack,. if you'd like to talk to me.. Please free calling.. My number is 330.620.9377
 
Further more.....
When I was talking to Gene, I told him. If I, or any Vintage racer would have been invited to a meeting with the Board, I am sure we could have breeched the problems and we wouldn't be going through this. DKC would not be losing 25 - 30 entries this year. Entry loss $$$..... DKC can not really afford to loose.....
So, there was really not going to be any brake issue on the Vintage Karts for 2014.
I even suggested we, DKC and the Vintage Class, eliminate some of the karts that I felt was a major part of the problem .
Being the VKA Enduro Director, that went against everything I truly believe in.
But you shouldn't penalize the majority for a few.
I am not picking on you Jack. But as I don't know much about 4-cycles, you admittedly don't know much about Vintage karts.
And really, why would you.
There was no one there to provide you with correct information.
I have talked to Dave Larsen, from CES.... Bill Anderson from MKC...... and a couple guys from Woodbridge Kart Club.
We are being welcome by these groups.
So we will be running somewhere and spending our money with these clubs.
To everyone who is reading this, we want to return to Mid Ohio, and DKC, as soon as possible.
We would happily sit down and work out what ever differences there are.
Perhaps, Committee's representing Vintage, Shifter, TAG, 4-cycle, 2-cycle karters should be formed to address any and resolve problems.
There is NOT any one Board Member who knows everything about every class. No one could...
I personally could not vote on an issue unless I knew for sure what all the problems were and what other options were available.
I have a complete, different and positive opinion of Gene and understand better where he is coming from.
It does not mean I agree with everything we talked about, but I have a better understanding.....
And I can only hope he does too....
We ALL better work together and stop thinking that any one Class, engine or chassis is better than the other.
Because you are not.. WE ALL are in this boat together and if we don't work together, the boat is going to sink.....
Thanks again for everyone's input and support..
You guys are the best...
See you at the races....
Rick Chapman
 
I will attempt to address the tangent in this discussion, Brakes.

Jack, excuse me if I speak out of turn.. Jacks wording of brakes is not literal, it is an issue of driving technique, more so the different motor/chassis characteristics.

A vintage is at least 48" wide, wide tires and is nearly nearly flat [hard to see in a pack of sprints] accelerates quickly and usually enters turns at a conservative rate and has a high top speed potential.

A TAG is over 48" wide, enormous sticky tires, and can and does stop on a dime on its edge and accelerate faster than an animal sprint sit-up and most vintage. It has nearly the same top speed and if we can catch a draft - we're a coming along.

2 cycle sprint, just a faster animal in most cases.

An animal sprint is 36" wide skinny tires, pathetic acceleration, reasonable braking and a respectable top speed. Usually in packs of at least three desperately trying to maintain momentum and position to maintain a draft for their pathetically underpowered former pressure washer engines. Driven by lunatics In most cases who have spent countless hours on set-up scales, tire and gear combinations in order to get the most from narrow chassis, skinny tires and an engine that spends half its effort sucking in.

And yet we can enter and exit turns faster than a tag or vintage. This is not an insult it is simply a fact and wherein the problem lies.

So... what can we do to accommodate us all?

To me the simplest answer is a formula that decides if there are so many for an individual class then they run by them self, if not then sorry. If a mixed bag shows up, then its an unofficial scored practice.

Respectfully,
B
 
I can get what you are saying. We have similar situations at VKA events in which narrow rear engine karts run with wider sidewinder karts. The sidewinders with their wider stance and tire can consistently out brake a rear engine kart. Its not a good combination on a sprint track with tight turns to allow sidewinders and rears to compete at the same time. The karts handle different, and brake drastically different.
 
As a 4 stroke guy running the animal sprint endure classes all I can say is that I'd rather run with a vintage over a Tag any day. Yea we all have our days when we can be accused of parking it in the corners, but that's all about setup and engine tuning. However for Tags it's about driving style, it's the nature of the beast.
 
Sadly, if we were to put a full body on our vintage karts, of those who complain, who would even recognize the difference of vintage vs. state of the art?
 
Vintagequest said:
Sadly, if we were to put a full body on our vintage karts, of those who complain, who would even recognize the difference of vintage vs. state of the art?
Click to expand...

I don't understand - Bodywork?

Complain? I do not see complaining in this conversation, just the facts and some opinion. What would you propose as a solution?


As I stated - "To me the simplest answer is a formula that decides if there are so many for an individual class then they run by them self, if not then sorry. If a mixed bag shows up, then its an unofficial scored practice."

That is AN idea not THE idea.

Please, if you have another idea - lets hear it!
 
Sorry, I'll just bow out and refrain from any more of my input. I can explain but I cannot make people understand. See ya, ->->->->->poof<<
 
I'm shocked any sanctioning body is turning any entries away. Give each class enough actual track time that the drivers are too tired to run multiple classes (remember 1 hr. enduros? That'd probably literally kill people nowadays....45 min. might be good....30 min. isn't an enduro -- it's an overgrown sprint race.) I've been looking to get into roadracing and have read about it with interest for many years. Especially about the decline in numbers and the dumb bickering. Karting is already fragmented enough that it's doesn't need people preying on their own young... Run the oddballs in the "RWYB" class, score 'em seperately once they get to enough for their own class, and use laptime breakouts and staggered starts to avoid congestion as much as possible. Shoot, if ChumpCar can fit 120+ cars on Road Atlanta with teams of 4 complete novice drivers going 100+ mph, I'd like to think the better handling karts could do something similar... Oh well, I should probably just shut up since I have no dog in the fight. I may try to do some long course with my Leopard this year for the first time. Hope to meet y'all in the pits if so. I'll be easy to spot -- the only pastor drinking a beer in the South. After the racing's done, of course. Hope you all get it worked out.
 
One cannot understand a problem not explained.

We cannot help you solve your problem if your not willing to make the effort to explain.

My physic abilities are limited since I have had to wear my tin foil hat constantly because Jamie Webb keeps stealing my ideas. If bodywork was suggested in your conversation with Gene, I see nothing that it would do to solve OUR problem.

And isn't that really what it is OUR problem?

I'm trying to come to some sort of collaboration here with an open and honest discussion of issues and ideas.

Because - if you don't make the effort we - TAG, Animal and 2-cycle sprint will go on without you.

Not an insult, just a fact.

Regards,
B

Wait, there's more!
In auto racing they have vintage racing - vintage cars racing vintage cars. Hoopties racing hoopties. Lemon vs Lemon. Chump to chump. Not vintage race cars racing new race cars.

Or NASCAR racing INDY, actually a good analogy! They have almost identical top speeds but different braking/cornering/acceleration, not to mention open/closed wheel.
 
While I respect dkc decision concerning vintage karts I would like to know why. The more I read this site the more confused I become. Are we too slow. Do we have inadequate brakes. Are we too unpredictable in the corners. I run vintage and modern and am one of slower karts in both. I have been in the way and also have hit slower karts. I have never heard of indecent in vintage race, several times I have asked other drivers how we do and never heard anything negative. I would just like to know reason. Just like when. Girlfriend breaks up with you if she says why instead of we are through it doesn't hurt so bad.. thanx son axe.
 
Ok Guys... let's get back on point....
I have seen plenty of support for the Vintage karters..
AND, I received a number of emails and phone calls from guys who run 2-cycles, 4-cycles, TAG, etc, who we have run WITH in Classes.
In all calls and emails, these people don't understand the complaints..
Was it about the laydown vintage enduro's, rear engine enduros or the duals, if there is a problem at all.
This would help us understand where, if any where, there is truly is a problem that needed fixed....
So, I want to ask, who actually complained and what class was it in and what was the real complaint???
I suggest that if any of you want to complain about other racers, Please look at yourself first.
Everyone makes mistakes.. No one class is any better then any other class...
If we continue to lose enduro racers, where will Clubs get the money to rent these tracks???
Entry fee's are high enough and the DKC Board already knows they can not continue to raise the entry fee's much higher, as they mentioned at a meeting a while back.
The vintage karts have to meet the same Safety Spec's as everyone else, and we do.
Brakes, bumpers, tanks, cloths... We now meet all these spec's... There has to be a fix to this..
This effects every racer who runs with the DKC at Mid Ohio and Gratten.
The loose of the Vintage karts will effect not only the Vintage racers, but everyone in the Big picture...
Many Vintage karters come with family members, who run modern class karts, who will not come to the races now.
More loss of money...
So, the loose of money will trickle down to everybody....
Think about it...
It's only a matter of time...
Rick
 
Agreed, but! Safety is first - no exceptions!

Each of us has an opinion and viewpoint unique to their kart class.

I think I have explained the problem clearly in a fair manner - happy to redress it if someone is confused, you who know me know that is my usual state of mind.. but this one thing I have a clear position on.

So again I ask, what are we going to do to accommodate everyone?

A DECLARATION
After last years many "incidents" this is the position I am taking this year - I'm fed up!
from losing chances to be in the top positions because of yielding to another class from either their ignorance or malice, I've done my share of both and am not proud of it.

Simply stated, vintage, TAG and situp sprint each should have their own race, in my mind, in the interest of safety no sprints should ever be combined with laydown. I have driven both and do not like the combination in either. It is a physical problem not a driver attitude/aptitude.
TAG I believe is a matter of education, there are experienced drivers who are aware of their environment and minimize the case of incidents. BUT still, I think they should run with the other classes that are more physically similar.

If two animals show up and there are ten laydowns and no time to fit another class.. I'm out a race - It's my problem not the laydowns, I will not ask them to compromise and I expect the same.

So, beginning this year for me so as not to impose my will on others I will only enter the races that do not combine these three chassis/class together.

This is how I am going to proceed - See you at the races!

PS: I disagree with the 'loss of money' Rick - The answer is fewer classes not more, there is only so much time in the day and it cannot be everything to everyone. Less choice = larger classes. I'm voting with my wallet, if it means I don't race, oh well, that's my problem not others.

Regards,
B
 
"B"....
To a point, I agree with your points...
DKC buys track time, basically, by the hour...
The cost of an hour track time is very high, so to combine classes in the only way to cover all classes.
But I blame the number of classes and LO Classes for much of the time issue.
Why there is an Animal class for gas and another for alcohol stymie's me.
And then there is just a few entries in each class.
I don't understand why people want a class of 2-3 entries vs 6-8 entries.
In Road Racing, maybe instead of a 10 second gap between classes, their should be 15 seconds.
And I also believe that if a group comes forward with a solid suggestion for a LO class, they should maintain
X" amount of karts. Otherwise, combine them with some other class. Make a RWYB Class...
Look at any Pre-entry form and count the classes.
In the Piston Port Class, they roll in about 10 different engines in one class. I rarely hear any complaining about the weight, engines, etc.
But, and I am not picking on any class, the 4-cycle racers always want separate classes by them selves. c
I say, "Great"... But where does the time come from and are you ready to pay for a separate hour of time??
There is about 32 classes now at Mid Ohio.... 32 classes is nutz.... Times 2 days.... 64 classes run in 2 days...
And some classes only have 2-3 entries... THAT IS NUTZ, too..... That's not racing, that's follow the leader...
Have you heard, "I won Blah Blah class at the Grand Nationals at Mid Ohio"...
Well I ask, how many was in you class??? When a person says 3-4... I want to laugh...
I suggest clubs look at all the classes times and form class brackets according to average lap times.
AND most importantly... Educate drivers on overtaking slower karts..
I am still hopeful we can resolve the Vintage Kart issue..
And we can still be a positive influence in the karting community..
1 point that has not been addressed is...
Most Vintage racers are 40 years or older, we have been involved in karting longer than a lot of current racers and we just love the sport for the fun and people..
We can work this out..
Rick
 
I'm liking the brainstorm of ideas!
"look at all the classes times and form class brackets according to average lap times." Yes! But its not that cut and dry, as I said in my NASCAR vs. IRL comparison. Look for yourself on MyLaps the top speed vs average speed perhaps there is an answer in there - I really don't know what the solution is but we need to keep trying.

The gas animal, well I respect the people trying to get it going but don't agree to the how, I invested in two years of showing up with an animal against flat heads with me unscored before it took off by shear volume of racers, three than seemingly overnight twenty! Then and only then did it become a championship class.

I never understood the logic in stagger starts in their current form. To my reptile mind; Fastest first, three seconds then the next group, three seconds... I don't think its been tried and I freely admit it might be stupid, never seen it tried. :confused:

Lapping or being lapped is bad enough, if its twice in less than half the race - just stupid!

Here's a thought(s): If some cracker jack EXCEL master can put the lap times in a spread sheet perhaps the data could support what the ideal combined classes better, might be a trend that we had not expected. Establish a minimum lap time and if your not on it your flagged off, I pit out if I'm not up to speed.

And don't get me wrong - I don't just want to dismiss any class but the whole picture must be considered and LESS CLASSES = MORE ENTRIES I am convinced of that.

Vintage! I just turned 54 today, had my first "race" in 1975, I AM vintage ;)
And yes we 4 cycles want our own race for the reasons I described - we are different animals and that is where the problems arise.

Lets keep talking and thinkering.

PS. "Educate drivers on overtaking slower karts.." That got me to thinking.. what if:

We determined a NO PASS point on the track, straight section well before the turn entry [point of most ugly incidents] where if there is no flag [new flag?]
determined by no mixed bag of karts heading for certain doom, then its open passing. If there is a flag then that means your either about to be or can potentially radically overtake another. No passing until a designated exit point. It has its own issues to address, perhaps a no passing from this point to that point at all times unless your the same class - I don't know, its AN idea I did not say it is a good idea, it sucks for all of us but that's just it, we all suffer a bit for the better of all.

Just think about it before you reject it..
 
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There have been some really thought provoking suggestions, ideas and comments..
Some folks might think "Huh"??? and others some might think, "Hmmm' might work"..
Thinking outside the box might not be a bad thing, but most times you need to take a few days and really think the idea out.
I continue to get emails about the removal of the Vintage Class without any discussion between the DKC and people it effects.
I answer these folk to the best of my ability and facts..
My email address is ... Rixkart@aol.com
I post this because some folks don't want to post anything and I hope this will allow them to get some answers.
Anyway, I would like to try and work this out and sit down and go over this situation.
No animosity, no arguing, no fighting, no agendas, no personal attacks...
I extend an Olive Branch for both sides to sit down and work towards what's best for the Mid Ohio entries, Enduro Karting and DKC..
This is a win, win offer... This can be worked out for the best of everyone..
And, a meeting could well benefit everyone...
Can we make this happen????
 
Agreed. After a bit of discussion with Woodbridge KC members at a dismally attended swap meet yesterday I have been thinking some. We will still have vintage karts by the way - no objection by us animals or any others.

My first thought is the swap meet is usually a good indicator of the years attendance, ours was sad. I will shut up and start looking at the lap time data and see what might come of it.

Regards,
B
 
Sorry to hear your Swap Meet was dismally attended..
We are picking a date to come to Summit Point this year...
How to meet you then..
Rick
 
I've never attended one of these shindigs, but have raced a while on sprint tracks....are drivers not used to checking their blind spots before doing twisty infield stuff? What's the cause of different class accidents? Grand-Am gets it done.... Seems like the gearbox and radically faster stuff can exercise patience and pick their slower obstacles off at safe and convenient spots... I wouldn't mix laydowns and sprints, but it seems like each type should have driver awareness enough to check their rear quarters and overtaking drivers should know better than to divebomb... Just curious?
 
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