Ted Hamilton
Helmet Painter / Racer
I'm not talking about "have to breath the throttle faster," I'm talking about "brake or you'll wreck" faster. 
Stock too slow? Got me wondering...
- Thread starter Ted Hamilton
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Ted Hamilton
Helmet Painter / Racer
6.5 clone is making around 12 or so, I'm guessing. Therefore, do the same things to the VTwin clone and it will be making mid 30's, I'd think.
FWIW, I'm not advocating for a change....just curious how things ended up how they are. Don -- your class sounds fun.
i couldnt tell you as a just got in the game, but i got a clone because the guys I talked to at the track sold it as a $300 proposition to get my racing going. cant beat that. I also like that it allows one to get a TON of laps in for cheap. cheap clutch, cheap everything and replacements are cheap. not too many engines you can say that about.
as far as the big block becoming the go to stock engine, i dont see that ever happening. its 2x to 4x as much for everything. and way too much footprint physically to be viable, imo
Ted Hamilton
Helmet Painter / Racer
If you're winning with a $300 clone, you must not be in the Southeast... Though I've considered the Predator class for the same reason.
If you want to know what the footprint in a kart is eaten up by, try looking at the seat sizing. I have room for a dual in mine...
I wouldn't mind seeing Tecumseh getting back into karting -- I started with one and and always liked 'em....RIP Star.
Though I've considered the Predator class for the same reason.If you want to know what the footprint in a kart is eaten up by, try looking at the seat sizing.
I have room for a dual in mine... I wouldn't mind seeing Tecumseh getting back into karting -- I started with one and and always liked 'em....RIP Star.
Didn't say i was winning.i said that is what got me interested in a clone.I'm sure there are thousands others out there with the same story.the guys who want to be national level, drove to every state,future nascar champs can spend the big bucks on the blue printed motors. But that occurs in every engine class i know of except lo206 which is where i should have started.
I have a big seat but I'm not unusual.you may have heard that Americans have a growing waist line epidemic?
Also I'll prefer not to have a 60 lb engine on the Kart that only makes 13hp when i can get darn near the same thing for half the weight
I have a big seat but I'm not unusual.you may have heard that Americans have a growing waist line epidemic?
Also I'll prefer not to have a 60 lb engine on the Kart that only makes 13hp when i can get darn near the same thing for half the weight
I really liked my 420cc predator, I ran it for almost 2 seasons in pretty much stock form. Due to the fact I was on a high grip asphalt track, I had problems with the carb and the cornering forces I couldn't get rid of without aiming the carb back like a WF, that's why I say "pretty much stock". I took the engine apart initially, honed an extra .0005" out of the bore, checked the rod clearance, removed the governor from the side cover, and put it back together. I threw big gears at it and went to race. Never had the side cover off since the initial build, and with pull starting only it was 18#'s heavier than my small block clone setup. The downside is they are very wide, and hard to physically fit on the kart. For me it took upgrading to KG Evo side pods, seat full left, and engine full right, and cut 5/8 off crank snout, to get it in there.
I have the head off of it now, planning on putting new valves in it and putting it back together. I'd bet it would run another season or two. The only reason I switched to a WF for this year, is because we've got a heavy class WF weight I can actually get close to.
To address the OP's point, I have to agree. On a large paved track these are a "floor it and wait" package at best. Sure there are the lines you take, tire selection, chassis setup, and so on, but at the end of the day we've still got less HP/Weight ratio than a geo metro.
I know that when I switched from small block to big block, my right foot was sore because the big block brought THROTTLE CONTROL back to racing for me, instead of "mash it and wait". Where you're missing the boat here, is the 13HP Predator big block is rated just shy of 20ft/lbs of torque, on the BOX it comes in, stock. I think if someone made a good axle clutch, it would solve a lot of the big block fitment problems.
I have the head off of it now, planning on putting new valves in it and putting it back together. I'd bet it would run another season or two. The only reason I switched to a WF for this year, is because we've got a heavy class WF weight I can actually get close to.
To address the OP's point, I have to agree. On a large paved track these are a "floor it and wait" package at best. Sure there are the lines you take, tire selection, chassis setup, and so on, but at the end of the day we've still got less HP/Weight ratio than a geo metro.
I know that when I switched from small block to big block, my right foot was sore because the big block brought THROTTLE CONTROL back to racing for me, instead of "mash it and wait". Where you're missing the boat here, is the 13HP Predator big block is rated just shy of 20ft/lbs of torque, on the BOX it comes in, stock. I think if someone made a good axle clutch, it would solve a lot of the big block fitment problems.
rk, those axle clutches are about 800 dollars no?
see, thats a problem you dont have to solve with a regular clone, lo206, or world formula, if one is on a sprint chassis like you and i.
also, are you perfectly sure on the 18lbs difference?
my big block ready to mount on the kart(engine plate and mount included) with pullstart removed, was 52 lbs. this is with a raceseng flywheel at 2.25 lbs vs the stocker at 12lbs. so add the stocker back and you are looking at 62 lbs.
my clone with pull start intact, also with billet flywheel and engine plate and mount, was 31 lbs, so a done up clone vs a stock gx390 clone on my scale was almost a 30lb difference.
see, thats a problem you dont have to solve with a regular clone, lo206, or world formula, if one is on a sprint chassis like you and i.
also, are you perfectly sure on the 18lbs difference?
my big block ready to mount on the kart(engine plate and mount included) with pullstart removed, was 52 lbs. this is with a raceseng flywheel at 2.25 lbs vs the stocker at 12lbs. so add the stocker back and you are looking at 62 lbs.
my clone with pull start intact, also with billet flywheel and engine plate and mount, was 31 lbs, so a done up clone vs a stock gx390 clone on my scale was almost a 30lb difference.
The 420cc is quite a bit lighter, and yes I weighed my fully setup GK-65, and the Predator 420cc, on the scale at 30#'s and 48#'s which surprised me. It is a bathroom scale so maybe +/- a few pounds, but I did the engines alone and then with me holding them to see if the difference was close and it was.
I know the bigger 460 does carry some more weight, but at the same time I'm sure it would hold up better when modified than the 420cc would.
FYI I make everything light, I build my own exhaust's, I cut down the top plates to just a fraction of what they were, every pound counts.
I know the bigger 460 does carry some more weight, but at the same time I'm sure it would hold up better when modified than the 420cc would.
FYI I make everything light, I build my own exhaust's, I cut down the top plates to just a fraction of what they were, every pound counts.
Not sure on the axle clutches, I was looking for some online and most of the stuff that came up was torque converter type.
The guy at the local mini-bike and mini-sprint shop is mounting his 34HP big block on a sprint kart. What he did was use a jackshaft which allowed him to put a plain sprocket on the crank and cut the rest of the crank off. The clutch is then on the jackshaft and the axle sprocket is outboard like a tag kart.
The guy at the local mini-bike and mini-sprint shop is mounting his 34HP big block on a sprint kart. What he did was use a jackshaft which allowed him to put a plain sprocket on the crank and cut the rest of the crank off. The clutch is then on the jackshaft and the axle sprocket is outboard like a tag kart.
X2 with PDPower. Like everything else in the world, racing is about $. If you've never raced 4 cycle dirt, you're missing something. It's not about how fast you're going but how fast you are compared to the rest of your competitors. I've raced both 2 cycle dirt and asphalt, enduro and both stock Yamaha + Mcculloch engines, Controlled Stock engines, and unlimited 2 cycle engines. 4 cycle dirt racing is as much fun as any kind of racing I've ever done. Racing Clones is still not cheap when you include the tire situation but it's very hard to beat it.
Ted Hamilton
Helmet Painter / Racer
I've raced both dirt and asphalt. I grew up racing on 1/10 asphalt ovals with a flathead briggs....then my first kart was a 35hp Formula Super A Parilla TT37 Revenge on a bare Swiss Hutless. Not even in the same ballfield. IMO, I like the challenge of mastering the machine vs. track as much as outsmarting the other competitors with good driving -- thus, I'd rather have to exercise my right foot too. Flatheads teach you to be smooth, but you miss out on a whole different skillset. Slow engine = close racing....'cause you can't get away.
71 Chevy -- my post above was made with tongue in cheek, but tone / mood don't convey well in text. After re-reading, it seemed insulting, so my apologies -- didn't mean it that way. That American male is rather rotund.....and sports like Football, Hockey, etc. that weight is an advantage.....and they tell me, at 160# to suck it up and deal with it or go home.....racing is a sport where my light weight and skinny frame are an advantage -- and all the fat guys want to dictate the rules to minimize their disadvantage. I say, "tough!", but there's not enough like me, so I bolt 45# to my kart and blow a disc or get a hernia, all in the name of fairness... If we raised the HP, the weight differential wouldn't matter as much....that seems to be another advantage to me. And I'm a 2 stroke guy at heart, so I'd love a Stock Sudam class, with the new NORDAM being even better...but that has a snowballs chance in heck of happening in American dirt karting.
Guess we'll see what transcends the clone and the LO206...hopefully whatever it is is good for karting, not the importer's pocketbooks.
~ted
71 Chevy -- my post above was made with tongue in cheek, but tone / mood don't convey well in text. After re-reading, it seemed insulting, so my apologies -- didn't mean it that way. That American male is rather rotund.....and sports like Football, Hockey, etc. that weight is an advantage.....and they tell me, at 160# to suck it up and deal with it or go home.....racing is a sport where my light weight and skinny frame are an advantage -- and all the fat guys want to dictate the rules to minimize their disadvantage. I say, "tough!", but there's not enough like me, so I bolt 45# to my kart and blow a disc or get a hernia, all in the name of fairness... If we raised the HP, the weight differential wouldn't matter as much....that seems to be another advantage to me. And I'm a 2 stroke guy at heart, so I'd love a Stock Sudam class, with the new NORDAM being even better...but that has a snowballs chance in heck of happening in American dirt karting.
Guess we'll see what transcends the clone and the LO206...hopefully whatever it is is good for karting, not the importer's pocketbooks.
~ted
I'd like a 420cc predator class same as the 212s only with a 420cc. It wouldn't be an economy class but it would fun and about the same price as what a lot of people pay for a regular clone. 300 for motor 175 for clutch maybe another 150 for pipe mount plate chain guard and top plate. Most people have already have a muffler and fuel pump.
That's basically what I ran. OVKA has a rule set for the 420cc that is stock for the most part. Carb issues aside, I did nothing more than change oil for 2 seasons of racing. The initial cost was more due to the clutch, but it's got more track time than all my small block clones combined and it's not tired yet.
Mine wheel hopped and got squirrely coming out of pre-grid.....torque......like break stuff torque. I learned real quick to feather the throttle getting going from a stop.
BP-ish build 196cc clone, 1:09.8 best lap time(track is 3/4 mile 19 turns), geared 13/58 peaking at 6800 rpm. Stock 420cc predator, trick 11.8 valve springs inside stockers, no governor, and basic filter adapter header and re-jet, 1:05.7 geared 16/55, peaking around 5500.
BP-ish build 196cc clone, 1:09.8 best lap time(track is 3/4 mile 19 turns), geared 13/58 peaking at 6800 rpm. Stock 420cc predator, trick 11.8 valve springs inside stockers, no governor, and basic filter adapter header and re-jet, 1:05.7 geared 16/55, peaking around 5500.