Track Tac

Track sizes, a comparison.

alvin l nunley

alvin l nunley

Site Supporter
I have this CAD/CAM program that allows me to draw pretty much anything to scale. I've been laying out some 1/8 mile tracks. Today I laid out a football field and overlaid it with one of my 8th mile tracks. The tracks, I have 7 of them, all have a 660, (1/8 mile) foot inside line. Surprisingly, 3 of the tracks, have the outside line of the 25 foot wide track crossing over all 4 sides of the football field.

Lots of people say their track is 1/8 mile. I'm just wondering if they really know how big a 1/8 mile track is. I very seldom see videos with tracks that big. Go to your local high school and take a good look at the football field, then realize that the track going around that football field, if it has one, is a quarter-mile.

The reason I did this is because people ask for stagger recommendations for the track they race on, and many times they say the track is 1/8 mile, but I wonder, is it really that big? One track, with a 40 foot radius turn, is actually 35 feet longer than the 100 yard playing surface.

The point of this is; if you want some really good information on gearing and stagger, you've got to give more information than just, "it's an 1/8 mile track"
 
What does it matter to you. Your gearing and stagger assumptions are just that. You have zero real life testing on oval. I rarely see anyone post Al will you please mathematically tell me my stagger and gear. Your good at math, so am I. I've done the testing. Theory's are not always the fastest. Engineers are not always the smartest. You over think everything but can not and will not except real life facts. Most everyone I know personally can look at a track with their eyes not a computer and give you a gear that will be within a tooth or 2 and stagger within a 1/8" why do you think that. Real life data. Most everyone on here if they would post the question regarding gearing and stagger if they posted the track someone with real life data can get them closer then you can sitting from your computer chair.
 
The biggest thing I find entertaining is you ask for radius of the turn and length of the straights and yadda yadda toot. But who runs the inside of the track or outside of the track. You never ask the true racing line distance or radius of the true racing line. You can do you absolute best at guessing that but unless you have a gps tracker of some sort you will never get the exact math. Period. That's like taking your car on a highway gps says its 60 miles and your driving 60mph and you go exactly 60 miles it should take you exactly 60 minutes right? Now I'm driving the same 60 miles at 60mph but I'm hitting the Apex of the turns is it still going to take me 60 minutes even knowing I technically traveled a shorter distance but changing my line?
 
Crazyboyracing7 said:
The biggest thing I find entertaining is you ask for radius of the turn and length of the straights and yadda yadda toot. But who runs the inside of the track or outside of the track. You never ask the true racing line distance or radius of the true racing line.
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To start, I don't understand why you're so angry! 2nd, with my software you can use the driving line for the calculations, but it's so hard for people to even tell me the radius of the track, there's no hope of getting the radius of the driving line. In any case, the two, for the most part, are pretty close together as far as calculating stagger. In other words, using the inside line of the turn, or the driving line, gets you very close to the same stagger. I've done all the calculations.

Tell me, if you're going to a track you've never been to, wouldn't it be nice to know the radius of the turns so you could be ready with the proper stagger, or at least close, or would you rather just show up and hope you have the right pair of tires? Of course you could have 10 sets of tires, but does the newbie come to the track with 10 sets of tires?

What I'm saying is; you don't need to get it exactly right, close is good enough. Most people don't pay any attention to feet, let alone inches.
 
while I understand both sides of the coin, it's problematic in that tracks vary so much from one to another that to get an accurate read on what it's all about, you would have to measure (even rough) to get a good lay on the track itself. but, looking at crazyboyracing7's view point, he's right too....so many factors go into what gearing, stagger, air pressure and drive line that getting a mathematical formula to equal what gear ratio to use wouldn't work. it would be nice to know as a starting point, but driving lines vary once you hit the track....sometimes the bottom is the easiest way....but I like to rim ride on the back stretch getting as much speed as I can before I dive for the bottom in the turns and run inches off the inside wall...just to fade back to the outside. but that's on a good lap without encountering other karts that will upset my line...having to dive inside to make the pass or waiting until I'm at the apex of the turn to dive down....

I'm not arguing for or against what each of you are proposing, but to put a track into a calculator and determining the gear ratio and stagger is all good and when you go to a new track, this is the kind of info that would be good to know....but looking at what crazyboyracing7 says, he's right too....nothing beats eyeballing the track and seeing the line that others are using and gauging what would be optimal.

I'm not repeating or trying to start anything, but I've learned that engineers deal in absolutes...they will either be absolutely right or absolutely wrong (although you'd never get them to admit to being wrong! lol!) but a happy medium can be reached al....to give what your program delivers as a starting point and then when the racer gets to the track and gives it a once over, he can take that info and adjust to what the track is willing to give up.....
 
Unless the track size varies an incredible amount such as from indoors to outdoors our stagger doesn't change all that much. Most can change stagger at the track to compensate. Our ball park of the stagger works. No need for the exact radius when it wouldn't influence our setup.

Lot of wasted time and effort for nothing really.
 
I was hoping to get some comment on how big a 1/8 mile track actually is. When someone says they're racing on a 1/8 mile track, do you imagine a track as big as a football field? Do you imagine the straightaway being from 110 feet to 205 feet? Do you imagine a turn radius from 40 to 70 feet? Do you imagine, depending on that radius, a stagger of 1 1/4 inches to 2 1/4 inches? Theoretical mind you! And if that track has banked turns, can you imagine how much you need to adjust that staggered to the banking?

My stagger calculator says right on the front page, "theoretical", theoretical means, "not exactly, just a close guess." I'm sure there are, "experienced" drivers that can guess, but that guess comes from that experience, without experience, it gets a little harder.

Calculations aren't always right. I remember once, when I was younger, somebody making the calculation that bumblebees can't fly, and that nobody will ever exceed 150 miles an hour in the quarter mile. Glaring examples of miscalculation. Still, would you like to build the GOLDEN GATE BRIDGE with seat of your pants reckoning, or would you rather use calculations. Would you fly in an airplane that somebody built without using calculations. I think you get my point.
 
I will sure agree that most ,or at least a lot of tracks, are not actually as big as advertised----I gotta give Al credit--he takes more abuse than anybody on this forum and keeps coming back---I promise that my skin is not that thick--I would be long gone by now. Plus he uses his real name and doesn't hide behind a screen name. hang in there Al.. Just my opinion, John
 
alvin l nunley said:
.................My stagger calculator says right on the front page, "theoretical", theoretical means, "not exactly, just a close guess." ........................
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" the·o·ret·i·cal
THēəˈredək(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: theoretical

concerned with or involving the theory of a subject or area of study rather than its practical application.
"a theoretical physicist"
synonyms: hypothetical, abstract, conjectural, academic, suppositional, speculative, notional, postulatory, what-if, assumed, presumed, untested, unproven, unsubstantiated
"it's just a theoretical situation"
antonyms: actual, real
based on or calculated through theory rather than experience or practice.
"the theoretical value of their work"
synonyms: hypothetical, abstract, conjectural, academic, suppositional, speculative, notional, postulatory, what-if, assumed, presumed, untested, unproven, unsubstantiated
"it's just a theoretical situation" "

Wonder why "close guess" was not included in the word definition?

When I imagine a dirt oval track........I imagine a track that has no "straightaways", but is just a series of varying radii arcs..enclosing an area not used as actual racing surface.

Also, when I imagine the first "dirt work" of laying out a dirt oval kart track............I don't imagine a man in a hard-hat, staking out the path of the intended track on an unimproved earth surface, working from a detailed blue print, with precise measurements, turn radii, and embankment elevations.
I imagine a man getting on a tractor with maybe a box blade or plow and driving around where he thinks the new track should be, altering those earth breakages until he thinks he finally got it right.
 
johnelliott said:
I will sure agree that most ,or at least a lot of tracks, are not actually as big as advertised----I gotta give Al credit--he takes more abuse than anybody on this forum and keeps coming back---I promise that my skin is not that thick--I would be long gone by now. Plus he uses his real name and doesn't hide behind a screen name. hang in there Al.. Just my opinion, John
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I believe Al sees himself as an educator..........attempting to cure his perception of the ignorance associated with oval kart racing........with his name being important to those benefiting from his instruction............as being the identified source of their new knowledge. :)
 
DarthDuck said:
Wonder why "close guess" was not included in the word definition?

Also, when I imagine the first "dirt work" of laying out a dirt oval kart track............I don't imagine a man in a hard-hat, staking out the path of the intended track on an unimproved earth surface, working from a detailed blue print, with precise measurements, turn radii, and embankment elevations.
I imagine a man getting on a tractor with maybe a box blade or plow and driving around where he thinks the new track should be, altering those earth breakages until he thinks he finally got it right.
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I've been told that I need to speak with less technical detail. Now you're making fun of me for doing exactly that. No problem. lol

And I wonder; if somebody did stake out a track layout, would we laugh at him? If he had a plan to build a 1/8 mile track, what would be wrong with staking it out. I'm guessing there's a lot of people that would want to know if the track they're building is actually 1/8 mile. Or whatever size they had planned on. If they wanted banking, of a certain degree, I'm sure there's some planning in that. Depending on how many degrees of banking you want, I would think you'd have to calculate how high to pile the dirt.

And, thank you for the dictionary definition of theoretical. I don't know why "close guess" isn't one of the definitions, but it is apropos. (appropriate in a specific situation)
 
What I'm saying is; you don't need to get it exactly right, close is good enough. Most people don't pay any attention to feet, let alone inches.
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Emphasis mine.

Is gearing or jetting more important to get "close enough"? ;)

For serious racers, "close enough" is not going to cut it.
Gearing is so critical at some events that being off a tooth or two is all the difference between being competitive or not making the show.

While Al's math will "get you close", it is not the end all in the decision making process at the track. I think he will agree with that. The amount of grip you have, the amount of drag resistance (mass/weight), the corner drop rpm, etc. all have a big say in what will be the correct gearing for your particular engine package on any given track.

Math is fun.
Racing is funner.

Thanks,
Brian Carlson
1989 Purdue B.S./I.E. Math grad. :)
 
alvin l nunley said:
I've been told that I need to speak with less technical detail. Now you're making fun of me for doing exactly that. No problem. lol

And I wonder; if somebody did stake out a track layout, would we laugh at him? ................
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I am neither "making fun of", nor "laughing" at anyone or anything.

If someone wants to lay out a track using professional engineering plans and blueprints.............and has that track "staked out" by a team of surveyors using state of the art equipment.............then has that track constructed by a professional site preparation construction contractor...........that is their prerogative.
 
It wouldn't change the setups used, or the racing in general no matter how precise you laid the track out. Dirt can only stay so precise for so long, it would quickly change and change with the weather and week to week preparations. It's not like asphalt where the layout of the track stays more consistent week to week. Even asphalt shifts and changes over time. Only constant is that nothing is constant.

Then your precise measurements are ball parks and guesses at that point unless you check banking and race line through the day.

Also as you mentioned Brian the grip of certain dirt changes through the day. Gearing and stagger, kart setup can all change based on what the kart is telling us. So precision is out the window and you go from experience. Either yours or someone else's. Or guess!
 
Dennybob said:
Google Earth and a ruler will get you mighty close to the radius of any track.

Denny
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Google maps on my phone has a measure fearture. You can go point to point to ponit. The aerial picture may have been shot on an angle tho which will skew the measurements. Depending on when the picture was shot you can see the black racing groove on some. Having said that: It's different every time you go to the track. To many variables.......
 
Okay then, from what I'm hearing, none of this stuff makes any difference, the size of the track, the banking and the radius of the turn. You don't need any help with that stuff. Anybody with half a brain can just look at the track and see what he needs to know. I thought I was helping, but I guess not. Can't blame me for trying.
 
Its not only the "racers" who don't truly know the length or size of the tracks. I don't believe the "owners" or operators do either. Show up to Orange County Speedway in NC. and Shenandoah Speedway in Va. with the same gear in your car. Both are listed as 3/8 mile paved ovals. I will assure you, they are NOT the same size. One will fit inside the infield of the other easily. Brings in to question how any track is ultimately measured.
The "spirit and intent" rule is discussed on here quite often. It clearly requires the application of ones opinion. This opinion may be based on perceived "facts" but is still an opinion. With that said, having read numerous posts by Al, it is clear to me his "spirit and intent" is to try and be helpful. Keep at it Al.
Also try and remember, distance changes with time. The distance walked to "school" or to the "store" has grown ten fold over the years. Possibly a hundred fold since my grandfathers childhood. Maybe the track lengths have too. IDK.
 
It's funny you mention that, and they add "up hill both ways!"

Some tracks are actually on a hill side! Yeah, Dickson speedway in Dickson Tn is uphill on one straight and down on the other.... Also one corner is bigger than the other.....
 
Crazyboyracing7 said:
The biggest thing I find entertaining is you ask for radius of the turn and length of the straights and yadda yadda toot. But who runs the inside of the track or outside of the track. You never ask the true racing line distance or radius of the true racing line. You can do you absolute best at guessing that but unless you have a gps tracker of some sort you will never get the exact math. Period. That's like taking your car on a highway gps says its 60 miles and your driving 60mph and you go exactly 60 miles it should take you exactly 60 minutes right? Now I'm driving the same 60 miles at 60mph but I'm hitting the Apex of the turns is it still going to take me 60 minutes even knowing I technically traveled a shorter distance but changing my line?
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Don't forget to add bumps, grip, dust that has settle on the track between runs, track temp, the types of prep laid down from other karts tires etc etc.. All of this info will help al determine exactly how much stagger you need to get around the track as fast as possible.
 
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