jack burroughs
member
Lots of dreamers out there, I think some of them only ever raced their lips. And they never know anything of our sport's history.
Clone Racing Size and Future Growth?
- Thread starter InventorKart
- Start date
Seems to be growing around here, alot of racers who used to race years ago and just getting back into it. There was alot of people that did that this past season just here locally, I can imagine it happens everywhere else too. Haven't seen anyone selling out either, so thats a good sign too. Its pretty much all clones or open around here at all the tracks, very few if any stock predators or Briggs engines.
if someone trys to sell you a diamond ring for 10 cents, it probably isn't worth a dime....clone racing isn't going the way of the albatross or the do-do bird....people said the same things about the flathead when the first animals come out (I was flagging two kart tracks at the time and heard it all)...
i've mentioned several times that i'm against rules that make no sense or rules that take a doctorate to understand or rule books that weigh more than the kart does....keeping things simple and easy to understand goes a long way in keeping and generating interest.
clones are here to stay in some way, shape or form. the popular opinion of some is that the LO206 engine is the only way to go and that all others will take a backseat...i don't feel that way. you still have flathead classes, clone classes, LO206 classes and all the others that to make a statement that clones are on thier way out is just not noteworthy from anyone.
now...new products come out all the time. but you have to have a need. like the movie "robots"....see a need? fill a need!....the HANS device was developed when there was a need to be safer in motorsports and it worked. a new heatshield/chain guard combo? that's not filling a need, but more advancing a design that is already being used. it's not a product that will "revolutionize" the industry. InventorKart says " I've spent the past couple months working on a prototype for a product that I believe will greatly improve a key safety aspect for clone racing karts".....greatly improve safety? In a kart? lets look at it:
1. Helmets.....already at the peak of what can be safely done with them by the best in the world.
2. Head/Neck Braces.....again, HANS for caged karts, the EVO or Valhalla for the flat karts....not much room there....
3. Suits/Jackets.....well, this one is out the window as thier are some of the best in the world available all the time....
4. Kart Design.....won't even go there....
5. Engines....same, ain't gonna touch it....
6. Engine Safety Features.....one kill switch, one heat shield/chain guard ...they already do the job
What else is there? roll bars to mount to a flat kart? buy a champ....head rests? talk to the santioning bodies before you even think about it because more than likely, it's already been tryed and rejected. I can't think of anything else that would come close to "greatly improve safety".....unless it's airbags.....
InventorKart....not tyring tol burst your bubble or even discourage you....but you brought it up.....bounce the thoughts off all of us on here. you don't have to mention what your working on, but given that more knowledgable folks than me are on here and have been around karting a lot longer than I have would probably be the best bet to make sure you are going down a road that leads to the improvements that you are thinking about. otherwise, you might go the way of the pet rock...why buy one when you can walk to the closest playground and grab all the pets you want.......
for what it's worth, good luck....we need folks thinking about safety!!
i've mentioned several times that i'm against rules that make no sense or rules that take a doctorate to understand or rule books that weigh more than the kart does....keeping things simple and easy to understand goes a long way in keeping and generating interest.
clones are here to stay in some way, shape or form. the popular opinion of some is that the LO206 engine is the only way to go and that all others will take a backseat...i don't feel that way. you still have flathead classes, clone classes, LO206 classes and all the others that to make a statement that clones are on thier way out is just not noteworthy from anyone.
now...new products come out all the time. but you have to have a need. like the movie "robots"....see a need? fill a need!....the HANS device was developed when there was a need to be safer in motorsports and it worked. a new heatshield/chain guard combo? that's not filling a need, but more advancing a design that is already being used. it's not a product that will "revolutionize" the industry. InventorKart says " I've spent the past couple months working on a prototype for a product that I believe will greatly improve a key safety aspect for clone racing karts".....greatly improve safety? In a kart? lets look at it:
1. Helmets.....already at the peak of what can be safely done with them by the best in the world.
2. Head/Neck Braces.....again, HANS for caged karts, the EVO or Valhalla for the flat karts....not much room there....
3. Suits/Jackets.....well, this one is out the window as thier are some of the best in the world available all the time....
4. Kart Design.....won't even go there....
5. Engines....same, ain't gonna touch it....
6. Engine Safety Features.....one kill switch, one heat shield/chain guard ...they already do the job
What else is there? roll bars to mount to a flat kart? buy a champ....head rests? talk to the santioning bodies before you even think about it because more than likely, it's already been tryed and rejected. I can't think of anything else that would come close to "greatly improve safety".....unless it's airbags.....
InventorKart....not tyring tol burst your bubble or even discourage you....but you brought it up.....bounce the thoughts off all of us on here. you don't have to mention what your working on, but given that more knowledgable folks than me are on here and have been around karting a lot longer than I have would probably be the best bet to make sure you are going down a road that leads to the improvements that you are thinking about. otherwise, you might go the way of the pet rock...why buy one when you can walk to the closest playground and grab all the pets you want.......
for what it's worth, good luck....we need folks thinking about safety!!
mikeincoppell
New member
Since early 2013 the U.S. has been on a First Inventor To File (FITF) system, having switched from the First to Invent system. So if a patent application has been filed, the filing fees paid, and assuming one day a patent is granted you are protected in the U.S. from the date the application was accepted. In the U.S. system of FITF vs. most of the rest of the world that uses First To File (FTF) the FIFT system does allow some grace period so you do have to take that into account when developing an invention.
Once filed, unless you have requested an expedited patent which will have more restrictive claims expect about two years on average before a patent is issued. This all assumes you have an invention that is patentable. The more narrow the scope of the claims the more likely a patent will be issued. For example if you apply for a patent for a "Single cylinder internal combustion engine" it will be tossed before the ink is dry. If you apply for a "Single cylinder internal combustion engine of 196cc displacement, 4 cycle, used in kart racing on XXX brand chassis and only used on dirt ovals in the southeast etc...." you will have a better chance. You want the claims to be as broad as possible and the examiner wants them to be as narrow as possible.
My company spends an average of about $50K for each U.S. patent we receive. If you don't have a pot of gold sitting around for a bunch of attorney's fees the USPTO office has programs to assist individual inventors. You can start here: http://www.uspto.gov/inventors/proseprobono/
Assume you have a patentable invention, paid everything up to now, and have been issued a patent. WoooHoo! Now there's some bad news and some really bad news. The bad news is throughout the life of the patent you are required to pay "maintenance fees" to keep it active. These are usually only a few hundred dollars but if you have hundreds of patents like my company does it adds up. Now the really bad news. If someone infringes on your patent it is solely up to you to defend it. There is a bit of good news as if you win you could be entitled to to up to three times damages plus attorney's fees (look up Polaroid). My company once had a $36M patent suit settlement. But, in the U.S. it costs $2M+ to defend a patent. And that's only in the U.S., go outside the country and it gets expensive. Not that they would but imagine some Chinese company copied your product and started selling it in the U.S., like a clone of your product. I don't think you will stop them no matter how big your pot of gold is.
If you truly have a great idea that is deserving of a patent most individual inventors end up selling the patent or licensing the technology to companies that are interested in the product and can protect it. This is obviously rare though. The sad fact is patents are a rich man's game and the vast majority of patent infringements never get acted on. If you're interested in a true case of the little guy against the big guy in patents this is interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns
Once filed, unless you have requested an expedited patent which will have more restrictive claims expect about two years on average before a patent is issued. This all assumes you have an invention that is patentable. The more narrow the scope of the claims the more likely a patent will be issued. For example if you apply for a patent for a "Single cylinder internal combustion engine" it will be tossed before the ink is dry. If you apply for a "Single cylinder internal combustion engine of 196cc displacement, 4 cycle, used in kart racing on XXX brand chassis and only used on dirt ovals in the southeast etc...." you will have a better chance. You want the claims to be as broad as possible and the examiner wants them to be as narrow as possible.
My company spends an average of about $50K for each U.S. patent we receive. If you don't have a pot of gold sitting around for a bunch of attorney's fees the USPTO office has programs to assist individual inventors. You can start here: http://www.uspto.gov/inventors/proseprobono/
Assume you have a patentable invention, paid everything up to now, and have been issued a patent. WoooHoo! Now there's some bad news and some really bad news. The bad news is throughout the life of the patent you are required to pay "maintenance fees" to keep it active. These are usually only a few hundred dollars but if you have hundreds of patents like my company does it adds up. Now the really bad news. If someone infringes on your patent it is solely up to you to defend it. There is a bit of good news as if you win you could be entitled to to up to three times damages plus attorney's fees (look up Polaroid). My company once had a $36M patent suit settlement. But, in the U.S. it costs $2M+ to defend a patent. And that's only in the U.S., go outside the country and it gets expensive. Not that they would but imagine some Chinese company copied your product and started selling it in the U.S., like a clone of your product. I don't think you will stop them no matter how big your pot of gold is.
If you truly have a great idea that is deserving of a patent most individual inventors end up selling the patent or licensing the technology to companies that are interested in the product and can protect it. This is obviously rare though. The sad fact is patents are a rich man's game and the vast majority of patent infringements never get acted on. If you're interested in a true case of the little guy against the big guy in patents this is interesting reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kearns
Chris Cooper
Member
Mike - aren't you on vacation in Vegas ?? Play the slots for me. I'll be waiting on my winnings...
Mike does have several great points regarding patents and the legal work needed to enforce them once they are granted. Rule of thumb - develop your product and make as much as you can as quickly as you can.
Mike does have several great points regarding patents and the legal work needed to enforce them once they are granted. Rule of thumb - develop your product and make as much as you can as quickly as you can.
mikeincoppell
New member
I was going to play the penny slots but I couldn't find change for a nickel.
fastbraden11
Last of the originals
anyone can say they are/have been to a place and not be in the good ol USA
kartdude69
Member
Does it really matter where he is from as long as he offers a good product ?? I would bet he is from the USA...if he's not in the USA.
mikeincoppell
New member
Chris, we're home and I've got your share of the winnings. Be sure to remind me to give them to you next time you see me.
still hasn't responded with what he's thinking about.....no sense in trying to help if someone gets on here and says that they have invented the next best thing since sliced bread.....only to find out they are trying to reinvent the steering wheel.....give us an idea and let everyone on here help....who knows? maybe your idea coupled with someone on here throwing a few sawbucks into the kitty with help you on the road to greatness....otherwise, it seems like your idea isn't anything noteworthy.....or a footnote in the pages of a comic book.....
kartdude69
Member
Or maybe he is trying to protect his idea until he gets the patent & funding lined out...preventing someone with the cash beating him to the market. I don't recall the OP asking for anybody's opinion on his idea...he just asked about the growth of karting. Maybe his idea won't be noteworthy...but people thought the Wright Bros. idea was crazy too. The karting market & community will be the one's who decide if it's a good idea or not.
What has me thinking is..... what kind of a safety product works for (or is needed on) clones, but not animals
Patenting for an industry as small as karting seems odd to me, to each their own. To me having first to market advantage with a quality product, combined with a willingness to adapt, improve and iterate on it based on customer's feedback is a better strategy for a niche market.
In terms of the clone market, you'll get opinions everywhere and there is no hard data on the numbers that are racing. In sprint asphalt I would expect a pretty steep decline as the LO206 gains traction. However, overall that entire market is likely swamped by the size of that of clones racing on dirt ovals. I suspect a decline in clones on dirt, but not soon and not severe.
Patenting for an industry as small as karting seems odd to me, to each their own. To me having first to market advantage with a quality product, combined with a willingness to adapt, improve and iterate on it based on customer's feedback is a better strategy for a niche market.
In terms of the clone market, you'll get opinions everywhere and there is no hard data on the numbers that are racing. In sprint asphalt I would expect a pretty steep decline as the LO206 gains traction. However, overall that entire market is likely swamped by the size of that of clones racing on dirt ovals. I suspect a decline in clones on dirt, but not soon and not severe.
back when i was flaggging two different kart tracks, the talk was that flatheads were soon to be history because of the animal. then along came the clones that were the next best thing and the flatheads and animals were on the way out....and here it is, 14 years later (from flagging the tracks to now) and the animals, flatheads, clones and all the others are still running strong. but, the LO206 has entered the picture and is being touted as the next big thing. until something else comes along.
racing is sort of wishy-washy at best....thoughts and ideas are great! it keeps everyone on thier collective toes to find that extra .05 hp or that extra .01 second on the track....
racing is sort of wishy-washy at best....thoughts and ideas are great! it keeps everyone on thier collective toes to find that extra .05 hp or that extra .01 second on the track....
Other factors to consider...
Peoples time is more compressed than ever before. I see a lot of guys on here talking about how things were in the 60's and 70's, how they loved to tinker for hours. For most people ie karting's market for growth, thats not sustainable. Whether we like it or not, thats the reality. I'm a tinkerer too, but that's not the point. If karting is to grow, it needs to adapt to the current reality.
Family time is divided up much differently today, esp with regard to dual income earners. Information technology and increased higher level education participation makes available time shorter still.
Sim racing is bigger than ever (plenty of effort being put in there not sure if that excuse is quite valid).
For entry level, the experience should be somewhat close to arrive and drive, there's nothing wrong with that. it should be an incremental increase knowledge and skills required.
If we want the sport to grow that is.
I had a longer post that I managed to lose..
Tell me more about what you think about this?