Engine Prices WOW !!!!!

Yes you guys should be lucky there doing it..much easier stuff out there and money..what they charge might not be worth it to you..but the thing is, they kind of have to charge that because if not, they cant afford to live or make it worth doing..then there will be no businesses in karting because its not do able for less..step back...just like myself..alot of work, late nights and all nighters..not all that worth it honestly but i love what i do and i like the satisfaction of seeing my finished product and seeing my work do well.
 
not sure what you get for $900 I just got one for $279 from Dover all I gotta do is bolt it together. I like the predators for a stock class but I also offer class' for guys that want to tinker with their motors but I think you kart racers that never ran in any limted stock car races will soon learn that being legal in an "econo" or "limited" class is often more expensive than running open rules. $900 for a "box stock" or with what 8 horse power? vs. $1100 for an open motor that's pushing 20? price per horse power favors the open class'
 
its easy find a local builder to check them and lock them up,most of the time it wont last long tires,karts and ability takes over.
 
Easy - It then allows changes from box and starts to blue print from " standard " any time you start changing stock the prices go up because of the need to get in and MODIFY.

If you want to create and maintain an "out of the box stock" class..........create one at most any track in the US.

Simply build three or four karts with the engine of your choice.........find drivers for those karts........and show up at a track together, and tell the race director that you want to race...........repeat for a few race nights........and most tracks will put your class on the race night roster.
Then it would be up to you and your fellow racers to keep your class "pure" and unadulterated by allowed modifications.
 
If you want to create and maintain an "out of the box stock" class..........create one at most any track in the US.

Simply build three or four karts with the engine of your choice.........find drivers for those karts........and show up at a track together, and tell the race director that you want to race...........repeat for a few race nights........and most tracks will put your class on the race night roster.
Then it would be up to you and your fellow racers to keep your class "pure" and unadulterated by allowed modifications.

Well said... and pretty simple!
 
If you want to create and maintain an "out of the box stock" class..........create one at most any track in the US.

Simply build three or four karts with the engine of your choice.........find drivers for those karts........and show up at a track together, and tell the race director that you want to race...........repeat for a few race nights........and most tracks will put your class on the race night roster.
Then it would be up to you and your fellow racers to keep your class "pure" and unadulterated by allowed modifications.

What some of these guys dont realize is that there would still be that one or 2 racers who hits the tires right and takes off and leaves the rest, then he must be cheating, since they all have the same engines lol
 
Let's take a serious look at evolution of change to this engine. The blue H.F. engine was the starter. Most of us are aware that the specs from one to another was way out of line. some of the cranks were 2.118 to 2.135. Some of the pistons were .040 in the hole and some were as little as .009. Some of the heads had the valves sunk below the surface of the chamber and some were as high as .030. Many of the cams were much more lift and duration than others. Everyone knows that an engine with a short crank, piston in the hole a lot, and a head that has valves sitting above the deck is not going to perform as good as an engine that has a long stroke, minimal piston in the hole and valves that are sunk in the head and cam that has lots of lift let alone duration. When the organizers got together and decided to create this program for karting, it was expected to get karting going again. The first engine was the Box Stock Project yellow. That was the engine that the actual first specs for AKRA came from. The first thing they needed to do was spec out the cam. To this day the cam still has the original specs of .050 and .200 duration checks and the lift at the push rods and retainer. There isn't much room for improvement on a cam that has those checking points. Some may think so and I know some are trying. But has anyone ever seen any dyno numbers on any cams that prove to us that there is a "BIG" difference from cam to cam? NO. Just hear say. Next there had to be a spec on the stroke. Why" Because AKRA opened up the "any 196" ruling and due to the big stroke cranks in the H.F. engines, it was only fair that all of us would be allowed to find a big crank for our use. Now you have a number on the stroke. Had to be put there, no getting around it. Next, the rings had to have some rulings put on them. AKRA had no means of proving that the rings were not stock during tech so they had to put a spec on them as well. Then they had to put specs on the weight of parts because of the builders ( not necessarily the big ones either ) Most of you can see where I am going with this. What do you get for 900 to 1000.00 dollars from a big time builder? Are you getting that max. stroke crank, that lightest specially treated rod, that lightest piston, that best flowing head, that special set of bearings, that lightest set of valves, that lightest wrist pin, that lightest lifter set, that lightest set of push rods, that best carb. How many engines do you think the builder goes through to find the lightest and best stuff for that 900.00 to 1000.00 engine. Now with that being said, if, and that is a big if, I am getting all that then the time he spent giving it to me is worth every penny. BUT, just how many of those special parts exist for every single engine that goes out the door for that price? Man, there must be a bunch of junk parts lying around in some of those shops!!!!!
 
I have read all of these post and see lots of valid points. A couple of things keep rattling around in my head.

#1: What do most think is an acceptable amount to pay for a "Box Stock" engine?
#2: I, like someone said a few post' above, bought a kit motor from a reputable builder. I bolted it together along with checking clearances with a $45 micrometer (yes I know that's not the most accurate, but my numbers read the same as what was recommended). First time out, I qualified 5th, only 0.130 off the pole. I do the same to my tires as the others in my class so it wasn't better tires. It ran like a raped ape and I was smiling big time. Assembling a kit is not rocket science. I honestly feel that my kit motor is as good and better than most of the others at the track. For any on the fence, do not hesitate to buy a kit motor if you know how to read a micrometer, use a torque wrench, and understand timing.
#3: YES WE DID IT TO OURSELVES !
#4: If you have a business, start selling your product at your cost and see how long you stay in business.
 
Just call Appco Karting at 513.539.9900 Price is cheaper then that and the service and support you get is well worth the call!
 
I could win with a pile of dog crap on the kart and I guarantee you next week almost everybody else will have a pile on their kart.
 
very informative and true....it boils down to "we made the bed and now we have to lie in it". engine builders are doing a great job, no doubt. but I can't help but to think that some are like dynodon says...they go through 100 engines to get the right parts to build one....me? i'd like to have a walk thru of those shops and see if I couldn't talk them out of some of the parts that they have left over!! just think for a second...if they honestly go thru 20 engines to find the right block, rod, piston....etc...the what about the 19 blocks that didn't make the cut? there is always a market for them. that's why places like ARC can offer a new clone block for $45....maybe it was one that didn't make the cut, but only missed by .001". see what i'm saying? it's not just from the motors that the engine builders are making their money....its the other services and products that they have too. i'm learning to build my own motors....NOT because I don't want to spend the money on someone else's building them, but for the pure fun and enjoyment I get doing it myself. if I buy a $950 motor and it blows up after 2 races, then I feel bad because it didn't last. if I build it myself and it blows up on the stand? then I have only myself to blame. I DID something wrong or chose the wrong part. but i'm still going to get the same enjoyment from a purchased motor as I would from a home brewed motor.

at the end of the day....I honestly love to walk in and wash the oil and grease and gunk off my hands....it's a personal thing.....and I love it! I love building my motors, working on my kart and driving my kart....and I love racing....almost as much as I love my family...but not quite.....

andy....I heard that kitty poo has about 3 times more power.....

just sayin!!!
 
I could sell my engines much cheaper, I just have to do a few things. First I will have to dump the building and it's related expenses (heat, air, power, phone, water, maintenance) get rid of all the help and their related expenses (salary, insurance, taxes) then I get rid of the business license so I don't have to pay any income or sales taxes. I can then take my tools and go sit in my garage and build engines. Of course I will still have to charge more for tooling and maintenance on the lathe, mill, flow bench, dyno, and then there all the cleaners, and other supplies I need. Plus my household power and water bills will go up. Now after all this the quality of the engines will suffer because without the retail business I will lose purchasing power to get the select parts, I will also loose customers and income because the store is no longer there. Now I will need to get a full time job to pay the bills and will only work on engines in my spare time. All this I must do so you can get a cheap engine, leaving you plenty on money to buy $200 a set tires, $30 a gallon oil, $80 a gallon preps and $3,000 chassis..

I don't charge $1,000 for an engine, but that's really not a bad price for what you get. Why don't you focus on the real money eaters like tires, prep, chassis, fuel and oil. I see folks fussing about a $5 spark plug while they pour $100 a gallon oil in their engine.
 
Schu power is right at $1000 and its well worth it..i believe miller is over 1k..Your talking double and triple that for the real good stuff :)

Yes i know a very rich man that had over 30 motors from miller at once and spent insane money on them. It costs alot fellas.
 
very informative and true....it boils down to "we made the bed and now we have to lie in it". engine builders are doing a great job, no doubt. but I can't help but to think that some are like dynodon says...they go through 100 engines to get the right parts to build one....me? i'd like to have a walk thru of those shops and see if I couldn't talk them out of some of the parts that they have left over!! just think for a second...if they honestly go thru 20 engines to find the right block, rod, piston....etc...the what about the 19 blocks that didn't make the cut? there is always a market for them. that's why places like ARC can offer a new clone block for $45....maybe it was one that didn't make the cut, but only missed by .001". see what i'm saying? it's not just from the motors that the engine builders are making their money....its the other services and products that they have too. i'm learning to build my own motors....NOT because I don't want to spend the money on someone else's building them, but for the pure fun and enjoyment I get doing it myself. if I buy a $950 motor and it blows up after 2 races, then I feel bad because it didn't last. if I build it myself and it blows up on the stand? then I have only myself to blame. I DID something wrong or chose the wrong part. but i'm still going to get the same enjoyment from a purchased motor as I would from a home brewed motor.

at the end of the day....I honestly love to walk in and wash the oil and grease and gunk off my hands....it's a personal thing.....and I love it! I love building my motors, working on my kart and driving my kart....and I love racing....almost as much as I love my family...but not quite.....

andy....I heard that kitty poo has about 3 times more power.....

just sayin!!!

Mike we do not pick though blocks, heads, cranks, valves or any thing else. The parts on our shelf are the same ones I use for my personal engines. As a matter of fact I've had over 50 heads in the shop that I put aside because the .815 install height was way too large and didnt want to have a back yard joe get ahold of it and be at a disadvantage. I have use most of them for BP or Outlaw builds. Thanks to the new rules allowing spring shims, heads like this can be used. Now that I think about it we do dig through parts but for the better of our customers... Our engines are $700 with either pipe and dyno tuned. When I build one for a customer I use 90% of what comes in the box. The only thing that might be changed is the rod or crank because of out of round or over/under sized. We carry true BSP blocks and offer some that have a taller deck for the ones that what one.
 
Let's take a serious look at evolution of change to this engine. The blue H.F. engine was the starter. Most of us are aware that the specs from one to another was way out of line. some of the cranks were 2.118 to 2.135. Some of the pistons were .040 in the hole and some were as little as .009. Some of the heads had the valves sunk below the surface of the chamber and some were as high as .030. Many of the cams were much more lift and duration than others. Everyone knows that an engine with a short crank, piston in the hole a lot, and a head that has valves sitting above the deck is not going to perform as good as an engine that has a long stroke, minimal piston in the hole and valves that are sunk in the head and cam that has lots of lift let alone duration. When the organizers got together and decided to create this program for karting, it was expected to get karting going again. The first engine was the Box Stock Project yellow. That was the engine that the actual first specs for AKRA came from. The first thing they needed to do was spec out the cam. To this day the cam still has the original specs of .050 and .200 duration checks and the lift at the push rods and retainer. There isn't much room for improvement on a cam that has those checking points. Some may think so and I know some are trying. But has anyone ever seen any dyno numbers on any cams that prove to us that there is a "BIG" difference from cam to cam? NO. Just hear say. Next there had to be a spec on the stroke. Why" Because AKRA opened up the "any 196" ruling and due to the big stroke cranks in the H.F. engines, it was only fair that all of us would be allowed to find a big crank for our use. Now you have a number on the stroke. Had to be put there, no getting around it. Next, the rings had to have some rulings put on them. AKRA had no means of proving that the rings were not stock during tech so they had to put a spec on them as well. Then they had to put specs on the weight of parts because of the builders ( not necessarily the big ones either ) Most of you can see where I am going with this. What do you get for 900 to 1000.00 dollars from a big time builder? Are you getting that max. stroke crank, that lightest specially treated rod, that lightest piston, that best flowing head, that special set of bearings, that lightest set of valves, that lightest wrist pin, that lightest lifter set, that lightest set of push rods, that best carb. How many engines do you think the builder goes through to find the lightest and best stuff for that 900.00 to 1000.00 engine. Now with that being said, if, and that is a big if, I am getting all that then the time he spent giving it to me is worth every penny. BUT, just how many of those special parts exist for every single engine that goes out the door for that price? Man, there must be a bunch of junk parts lying around in some of those shops!!!!!

I am on the side of the fence of those who believe that these "best of the best" parts go into the house engines of those builders, while the next lightest or next best parts go into the engines that actually go out the door to customers. Think about it, if you have a Kart Shop or build engines for professional top notch drivers, and your engine is going to be advertised at all the big races where that driver is racing, would you not want the best of the best in that engine, so help assure that the driver has the best chance in bringing home a win, and in turn bringing you more buisness since racers like to have the same engines as the ones that consistently finish in the front at those big races? i know i would if i knew my engines were gonna be on a kart that was winning big races like that. What usually happens after the races are over at those big races? Karts are impounded to be teched, correct? And while those karts are impounded to be teched, the racers and spectators are usually there checking out the karts that are impounded, checking to see what that kart has that theirs doesnt, and things like that, maybe even dig a fingernail into a tire or 2 and try to guess the duro they are. Iv seen this happening at the big races iv been to, as well as racers standing around by the tech room waiting to see which engines pass tech and which fail, and why they fail. Racers are not stupid when it comes to things like this.
 
Wonder if any tracks or series would support a crate engine class like big cars do. ?

L0206. Everything else is a repeat of the past. Someone would have to buy a few and take the first dip. Don't put more than a few hundred dollars to win and keep it simple. Watch the seals and make sure people are not breaking them.
I still think the tire bill outdoes much of the engine bill....
 
The clone class is exactly how the racers want it to be. If they did not want it this way it would not be this way.



agrre to a point, Bennie, and you know I tried as you have tried too. It didn´t work as expected so drivers can´t complain, though some builders were unable to understand there is room for completely stock classes and modified classes. Even those classes where builders are not required leave money to karting, more than if they just don´t race at all. JMO
 
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