has anyone tried running a pair of 125cc sudans

Taft Racing said:
Well I absolutely am not disagreeing with you that the Jawa is one bad to the bone kart ready engine. It's costs are reasonable, it's power is specific to speedway racing ect. All I'm saying is. The average guy can compete at a much lower cost with the 450. I don't want people reading threads that make claims they can't keep up or they won't work or there are no parts ect. The driver teams that can hook up 100 HP coming off a corner have to deal with the MPH and forces to bring all that back down and go left. A STOCK 450 will produce all the HP a kart can handle.

There's another thread with a gentalman that built his for under 2,000 I built this RMZ 450 3 years ago when the rules were changed to allow them. I bought the engine for 500.00 I bought a kart for another 500.00 I cut the tranny off with a chop saw. I built the whole thing with a drill press and 0 machining knowledge or equipment.

Itll fry the tire off at will. I had to run it half throttle to keep from running over the 131's It built tremendous HP and torque, My problem was slowing it down to make a good entry not getting up off the corner. I've run it to the rev limiter it never failed me. Fire up every time just lay me in the seat center off right off Idle.






Buy one build one have fun go for bragging rights ect ect ect. I hope to see a pile of Jawa's Honda's YZ's Wankles BRC's Sudams. It's all good.
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These photo's were the reason I built a UAS Kart with a CRF450 .
 
With all the talk of the Jawa I started googling speedway and found the GM site. GM is a competitor to the Jawa in Europe. I found these tuning tips in the manual interesting.

Compression
small slick tracks from 10.5/1 to 13.5/1
big deep tracks from 15/1 to 17.5/1

rider weigth <60 kg not over 14/1
rider weigth from 60 to 75 kg from 13/1 to 15/1
rider weigth >75 kg over 15/1


ignition timing compression around
28° - 34° 13/1
24° - 30° 15/1
20° - 26° 17/1

< 25° for slick tracks
>25° for deep tracks

Squish
> 1.5 mm for soft engine
0.9 - 1.3 mm for strong powerful engine

That is a lot of race day tuning.

DK
 
FOURTOGO said:
What custom parts, you mean all off the shelf hot rod parts that are for sale. The ease for hanging Moto-Engine is what makes the MX Engine easy to do. Before building my Kart I looked at a lot of engines that fit in the rules. I went CRF because (1) I weight 255lb (2) CRF is a proven engine (3) I picked it up for $800 (4) make engine mount was easy for me to do (5) bought second engine for $600 with carb electronics wiring . Would have gone KTM if I could have got one for a good price . I say hooray for any body that builds a racer that fit's with in the rules. It's kinda like my two buddies with Funny Bikes both with old school Mechanical injected turbo'd four cyclinders . Lots of potential power run some low 7:0's . And I also know a couple fella's the just run old school carb turbo and the other bunch on the blue bottle as my self that run quicker . With all that it just shows you can run any combo you want. some are easier to do right off . And some take a bunch more work to make happen . And some that will tease you along make you tear out you hair. I am glad the UAS is diverse as it is. For custom parts Carrillo for rods or off the shelf Hot Rod Crank << that's a brand Stainless valves <<< off the shelf Name your piston Wesco JE Wossner . Cams Web APE and a bunch more . Trans no trans . The Jawa is not a new deal Victorville Ca. run four classes of mini sprint using them just new to UAS as was the big four stroke MX'r .
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There was a guy running a Jawa on a minisprint 20 years ago down here too. When I found out you could run a 510cc single in UAS the thought crossed my mind. I didnt know how bad the vibrations would be though. Then I saw the Jawa in UAS, someone already did it! At least I know the problems I thought of arent really a problem.
 
I remember the 450 Tim, when you posted the vid of the first running of the engine. A shame the posts are lost.
 
ttownwideglider said:
I know there is a five hundred stroker kit for the 450. Buy stroker iam assuming it must be a new crank or is it just bored oversize. Do they make 15-16 to1 pistons? What about different cam grinds can you change lifts and durations to make a more torque engine or a top end horsepower type engine. Custom Engine cases to eliminate tranny and weight. Alky carb setups and custom manifolds. These are the parts I saw mentioned in the previous posts and the ones they were talking about. Yeah you can buy the trashed out ready to build 450 cheap but then you got all these costs to figure in the equation too. What about head work , just experiment and ruin a few till you get it right I guess, heads are cheap. These are all considerations that must be accounted for to get these engines up to the 80-90hp range that can be easily achieved by the Jawa and the Italian GM engines. These Jawa and GM weigh about 60lb in the raw form no clutch, what do the 450s weigh. Are the karts easy to drive with a 450 water cooled engine stuffed in the chassis. They look really cramped and elbow cracking too me. A laydown Jawa will tuck in the frame real nice and out of harms way, no radiator to mess with either. Everybody has their own way of doing things and that is cool. The hot rod 450 with a supercharger would be good with just a 15lb weight addition. But whats a supercharger and the mods for it gonna cost?
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The new Jawa and other speedway engines are watercooled now as well. Its not hard to weigh in at 430lbs with most thoroughbred race engine combinations. Tims got some cases coming for a very reasonable price. I'm sure he will have a laydown version in the not to distant future. A set of kart ready 250 2cycle Taft cases ready to assemble willl set you back $300.
 
You know, I often wonder if providing my 2 cents really matters in a discussion like this. 2 Sudams turned into a Jawa/450 sells conference. A 450, new, makes 60hp. A Jawa makes 70. You can turbo, supercharge, or nitrous them all you want. I have seen none of that stuff work on an oval dirt track. Until it does, waste of time.... 95% of our energy should be going as fast as we can in the corners. Being fast in the corners directly correlates to being fast everywhere else. Look at what the 2nd place guy at the big O did. I promise you, he didn't have the Jawa's power.
Until you have your tire program in gear, HP/torque is just you, "spinning your wheels". Pun intended.
Mike
 
Don K said:
With all the talk of the Jawa I started googling speedway and found the GM site. GM is a competitor to the Jawa in Europe. I found these tuning tips in the manual interesting.

Compression
small slick tracks from 10.5/1 to 13.5/1
big deep tracks from 15/1 to 17.5/1

rider weigth <60 kg not over 14/1
rider weigth from 60 to 75 kg from 13/1 to 15/1
rider weigth >75 kg over 15/1


ignition timing compression around
28° - 34° 13/1
24° - 30° 15/1
20° - 26° 17/1

< 25° for slick tracks
>25° for deep tracks

Squish
> 1.5 mm for soft engine
0.9 - 1.3 mm for strong powerful engine

That is a lot of race day tuning.

DK
Click to expand...

Hey Don, is the Godden still around? There was also Weslake as well.
 
I saw them in history only. Weslake is still around but making big v-twins with integrated superchargers.

DK
 
MikeGrady said:
You know, I often wonder if providing my 2 cents really matters in a discussion like this. 2 Sudams turned into a Jawa/450 sells conference. A 450, new, makes 60hp. A Jawa makes 70. You can turbo, supercharge, or nitrous them all you want. I have seen none of that stuff work on an oval dirt track. Until it does, waste of time.... 95% of our energy should be going as fast as we can in the corners. Being fast in the corners directly correlates to being fast everywhere else. Look at what the 2nd place guy at the big O did. I promise you, he didn't have the Jawa's power.
Until you have your tire program in gear, HP/torque is just you, "spinning your wheels". Pun intended.
Mike
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Did NOS on my RD350 Kart back in 1976-77 spent more time trying whoooing it than going around turns. My buddy Tom built dirt kart with a 250TZ bottom end and 375top end << that's one barrel off a TZ750 . It went from racing each other << five RWYB karts to only see his smoke hanging in the air. Darn thing was stupid fast and could turn. Sound WAS SO SWEET with him rowing through the gears. UAS rules Weight CC bring it . How could ask for a better rule package.
 
There is a frenzy going on guys and girls are picking up JAWAS here in U.S.A. and also ordering motors abroad and the year 2013 , 2014 and 2015 will be all about JAWAS , , nobody is talking about twin kt 100cc , nor twin Sonics nor twin Parilla 100cc or now even the UAS class for pass 6 years was Sudam 125 cc, remember when the WANKLES are coming and now it was the crf Honda 450cc 4strokes , , but now They ARE HERE and not going away JAWA 500cc Bad To The BONE 80 hp stock to over 100 modify hp without supercharger or NOS bottles and air cooled , with GN for 2013 win by Mullis and 2014 JAWAS will be up front and 2015 JAWAS will be up front and then in 2016 is when the new UAS rules will come out by Mark Berfelt the Founder of UAS could be more engine changes and weights. Can you imagine seeing 5 to 8 JAWAS at the same race , now that would be awesome. Spectators will come from far away to see that action.
GeorgeHenry said:
Jawa is the beast Hands Down Powerful , tons of Torque and sweet sound of that exhaust system. They are not going away they will just get faster and faster. Just look up the YouTtube video on the GN at the Thunder 2013, Mullis was on rails it sounded and looked like a freight train.
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GeorgeHenry said:
There is a frenzy going on guys and girls are picking up JAWAS here in U.S.A. and also ordering motors abroad and the year 2013 , 2014 and 2015 will be all about JAWAS , , nobody is talking about twin kt 100cc , nor twin Sonics nor twin Parilla 100cc or now even the UAS class for pass 6 years was Sudam 125 cc, remember when the WANKLES are coming and now it was the crf Honda 450cc 4strokes , , but now They ARE HERE and not going away JAWA 500cc Bad To The BONE 80 hp stock to over 100 modify hp without supercharger or NOS bottles and air cooled , with GN for 2013 win by Mullis and 2014 JAWAS will be up front and 2015 JAWAS will be up front and then in 2016 is when the new UAS rules will come out by Mark Berfelt the Founder of UAS could be more engine changes and weights. Can you imagine seeing 5 to 8 JAWAS at the same race , now that would be awesome. Spectators will come from far away to see that action.
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I got news for you I could sell 100 450 cases today if I had them done. There is MASSIVE interest in these things, Problem is I have so many orders to fill for 250's I can't find time to finish the 450 stuff.

Mike Grady you hit it on the head. Corner speed corner speed corner speed. I will say the big HP engines will splatter a smile on your face you cannot wipe off even if you can't slow down in time for the corner. LOL
 
Get'er done Tim.

The cream rises to the top. I look at it like a dart board. Most of us are on the outer ring and only need 50 hp stock on a 450 to even stay on the track for 20 laps. Sorry but that's a fact. And support the tracks that's support you and show up and race. I'm trying to find a baby sitter now so I can go to Dumplin Valley in sept. and it's my wife's birthday weekend. Double screwed.
 
ttownwideglider said:
I was wondering what everyone thinks about running a pair of 125 Sudans. Has anyone tried to do this? These engines blueprinted on alky should produce about 40-45hp apiece. That should run down the straits with the 450s and 500 4strokes wouldnt it. If I was to do this I thought about running them on a dual rail kart driving individual jshafts and clutches.Which should help getting rear cross more adjustable. Have questions about setting up the left hand engine. Can it be set up to drive the jshaft on the ignition side? How would you set up the left engine? I talked to a chassis manufactor about building a dual rail chassis in a offsett configuration and it is very doable.I see a lot of siemise and freight train engine setups but have always liked the left and right set up better.I know a lot of guys are running 250 2smoke mx engines but they arent getting this kinka hp and that engine must make rear cross a real nightmare. All sugestions welcome.
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Perhaps I misunderstood or I'm dead plain wrong but- IMHO - I believe dual 125cc's (SUDAM's or otherwise) are FORBODDEN. LoL sorry couldn't resist. I believe Presently the only shot u have are RWYB grudge matches, the Formula K, and/or the Formula C 275cc limit class of Yore (i.e. vintage racing/exhibitions as they call it). I say 275cc vs 270cc to allow dual 135cc's overbore per old class regs. That being said both properly tuned dual j/s FULL open 135/150cc or properly tuned dual j/s FULL open 125/141cc SUDAM's would annihilate 450cc mx 4 strokes/500cc Jawa/wankle/ or just about anything else kart related u could put on a sprint or dirt oval. - remember you're talking 125 hp from under 60#'s of engines+18#'s of dual j/s with double torque - indeed not to be underestimated or taken lightly - JMHO Hope I'm correct ?
 
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Brian Montgomery said:
I can tell you dual open 100's is more than enough.
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x2 with Brian. Dual j/s properly tuned alky 217cc kart has dual torque & 87hp on tap from less than 58#'s. Put a 145# jockey on that pony and it'll go to beat hell. Wankle/MX/or JAWA will have all they want of that rig and then some.
 
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MikeGrady said:
Rules can't be changed for 2014 or 2015. Speculation on what is what is a waste of time. The rules are fixed. If you think a Jawa is the way to go, buy one. If the rumors hold true, I will have 3 running in my area next year but I won't be on one. When I'm getting my tail handed to me, I'll change my focus.

PD,
Not if I'm there....

Mike
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x2 with Grady
Give 142# Grady a properly tuned dual j/s methanol PCR 217cc rig & bring it all season long ! go get'm MG - JMHO
 
Townglider, as you can see everyone has there own opinion of what works and what doesnt. The Jawa is definitely a good turnkey option with very little work required to get it up and running. In the long run its not that expensive however if someone had the skills and doesnt mind playing around a bit all the other options can be had for not to much money. If I worked my daily job the hrs I spend on my junk then I could probably afford whatever powerplant or chassis I wanted but some choose to do things themselves as I do, its pretty rewarding if your project actually works out the way you intended. Each to there own.

As was posted about the GM, there are power adjustments available in the manual so its a very good option. I dont think any more hp than a stock Jawa is needed except on those 1/4mile tracks if they bite up.

In any case the 4 strokes have brought a sound to the UAS that is a real head turner. I think there was another Jawa running around with less success than the Sarchett driven unit.
 
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