has anyone tried running a pair of 125cc sudans

FWIW, I think the JAWA is an economical way to go.

I would never use a combination when building an engine that wouldn't allow off the shelf parts. Con-rods can be made from variable sources for a very reasonable cost if needed. Most made to order rod manufacturers are cheaper that the euro originals and just as good. Of course there are always the dearer manufacturers too.
 
Hey Arc the longer stroke engines are usually not turned as fast as a short stroke, because of the velocity of the piston traveling at that distance. That's what I was saying. A short stroke engine will usually rap a little higher and a little quicker on acceleration. But after seeing that 10-15 races on piston replacement and 25 races on rod and bearings these engines should go about a full racing season in the Uas before rebuild maybe a little longer. Most of the flat track races are much longer than kart races. Usually 50 laps in Europe, that's two main features in karts. Iam liking the Jawa more and more.
 
Hey Arc the longer stroke engines are usually not turned as fast as a short stroke, because of the velocity of the piston traveling at that distance. That's what I was saying. A short stroke engine will usually rap a little higher and a little quicker on acceleration. But after seeing that 10-15 races on piston replacement and 25 races on rod and bearings these engines should go about a full racing season in the Uas before rebuild maybe a little longer. Most of the flat track races are much longer than kart races. Usually 50 laps in Europe, that's two main features in karts. Iam liking the Jawa more and more.


The velocity or acceleration and deceleration of the piston is one of the many factors of rpm but it doesn't limit the rpm, it just ,means it wont live as long. If you matched up the breathing and ignition from the short stroke motor to the long stroke motor the long stroke would still turn the same rpm as the short stroke, however it will not be happy about it. 10,000 G is about maximum for the rod and piston assembly with common materials used in race engines.

When I raced speedway sidecars I never saw any euro speedway long track race go 50 laps. From memory they were about 10-12 laps and tracks were about the size of a horse track and common to have grass as the surface as well as sand and loose dirt. The normal race distance when I raced speedway sidecars was 4 laps of tracks averaging just under 1/4 mile. About 1/5 mile. That was my experience anyway. And yeh they sure used to flog the hell outa them engines. But as stated earlier in this thread they are restricted spec racing type engines. The longevity part will start to reduce somewhat the more load you put on the parts that is offset by running lower rpm to compensate.

IDK, I thinks its all just wasted chit chat if you can run a turbo or supercharger on a 450 then I don't see why anyone wastes the time to talk about engine combinations. Just force feed the thing and EFI, lengthen the stroke to get the rpm down to about 7000-8000 maybe even lower and you have easily over 100Hp. Probably closer to 110hp. Surely this isn't the rule? Whatever happened to the poor little stock Wankle. Cant even run dual carbs.
 
The only problem with the turbo supercharger and nitrous is the addition of weight. At 430lbs to start this multiplies quickly. Don't remember the rule for the add ons but it adds up. Compare that to a 500 Jawa at the 430lb mark only no extra weight and this is another advantage. After researching futher the 898 short stroke is 3,750$ plus 650-1,000$ for the carb.Yeah you were right the European speedway races they are a series of heat races that last about 5 laps on 1/4 to 3/8 mile tracks. Each rider runs a bunch of heats a compiles points for each one they place in. The rider with the most points at the end of all the heats wins the competition. Greg Hancock is still racing over there sporting the old Stars and Stripes. Go to European speedway racing on youtube and there are several of the long track races in entirety.They are sure some beautiful tracks and the long tracks look more like a half mile. Some good watching even if you cant understand them. There is also another 500cc speedway engine called a GM made in Italy it was very fast against the Jawa.
 
Sorry, my mistake. The 2014 rules say all modifications are allowed to the wankel except forced induction and nitrous oxide or EFI. Must remain same capacity otherwise go for broke!

Also forced induction carries a 15lb weight penalty for all other engines. Not sure if that falls under the 430lb weight rule or forced induction with max capacity must be 445lbs.

That allows for some crazy insane powerful engines. You can also run a 2 cylinder 4 stroke but has to be 305cc max total capacity.
 
Can you run a turbo on a 2 cylinder four stoke under 305 cc's in the uas? How much do most of you 450-500cc guys weight in across the scales can most of you really make 430 and get the kart on good numbers? Has anyone weighed a wedge kart roller complete with no engine, if so about how much does one weight? I've got a guess on the weight but have never done it to know solid numbers.
 
Sorry, my mistake. The 2014 rules say all modifications are allowed to the wankel except forced induction and nitrous oxide or EFI. Must remain same capacity otherwise go for broke!

Also forced induction carries a 15lb weight penalty for all other engines. Not sure if that falls under the 430lb weight rule or forced induction with max capacity must be 445lbs.

That allows for some crazy insane powerful engines. You can also run a 2 cylinder 4 stroke but has to be 305cc max total capacity.

Mark Actually 2 cyl 4 st. are 510 cc limit
 
Hey Jawamaster thanks for the addition of info. Have been involved in racing and engines for many years. Just wondering how the F.I. makes the engine that much faster if a carb is set up right. I understand the F.I. controller sets the Fuel -air ratio at a optimum amount designed to fit the injectors. The computer also controls the pulse length but the timing also has to be altered to compensate for the fuel changes. This requires a very complex controller like a Power Commander for a Harley with a lap top to remap it all the time and a lot of dyno time to see which maps work best under what conditions. This also requires a climate controlled environment so you can change all the variables, humidity, bar pressure, temp, altitude very complex. What I have found on the Harleys is mainly a small increase in the throttle response not in overall performance. That's why Nascar engines didn't increase in power when they shifted to F.I. just a little bit quicker on and off throttle input. Iam not much of a computer genius so a carb is the way for me. To the 450 people, You Guys astound me you talk about expense of the Jawa then go right into making all these custom parts for the 450. Lets look at what you are saying first 2,000 engine, custom crank, custom rod, custom cams, custom cases, custom pistons. Plus look at all the work involved. Every rebuild will be a lot of custom parts too, not cheap either. the Jawas longevity should be very because the 889 model 90mm bore and 77.6mm stroke. That's a very short stroke for that bore and makes its power at 8,500-9,000.Thats a very tolerable range for the longevity of a racing thoroughbred engine. Hope everyone had a merry Christmas.
What custom parts, you mean all off the shelf hot rod parts that are for sale. The ease for hanging Moto-Engine is what makes the MX Engine easy to do. Before building my Kart I looked at a lot of engines that fit in the rules. I went CRF because (1) I weight 255lb (2) CRF is a proven engine (3) I picked it up for $800 (4) make engine mount was easy for me to do (5) bought second engine for $600 with carb electronics wiring . Would have gone KTM if I could have got one for a good price . I say hooray for any body that builds a racer that fit's with in the rules. It's kinda like my two buddies with Funny Bikes both with old school Mechanical injected turbo'd four cyclinders . Lots of potential power run some low 7:0's . And I also know a couple fella's the just run old school carb turbo and the other bunch on the blue bottle as my self that run quicker . With all that it just shows you can run any combo you want. some are easier to do right off . And some take a bunch more work to make happen . And some that will tease you along make you tear out you hair. I am glad the UAS is diverse as it is. For custom parts Carrillo for rods or off the shelf Hot Rod Crank << that's a brand Stainless valves <<< off the shelf Name your piston Wesco JE Wossner . Cams Web APE and a bunch more . Trans no trans . The Jawa is not a new deal Victorville Ca. run four classes of mini sprint using them just new to UAS as was the big four stroke MX'r .
 
Yes that is what it says. Dont know what the big deal is about 10cc, just creates confusion.

I thought that there would be an extra 10cc put on top of the max cc so you could do engine rebuilds and go up a few piston and ring sizes as the motor wore the cylinder. Wonder why it is not, in this instance?
 
I know there is a five hundred stroker kit for the 450. Buy stroker iam assuming it must be a new crank or is it just bored oversize. Do they make 15-16 to1 pistons? What about different cam grinds can you change lifts and durations to make a more torque engine or a top end horsepower type engine. Custom Engine cases to eliminate tranny and weight. Alky carb setups and custom manifolds. These are the parts I saw mentioned in the previous posts and the ones they were talking about. Yeah you can buy the trashed out ready to build 450 cheap but then you got all these costs to figure in the equation too. What about head work , just experiment and ruin a few till you get it right I guess, heads are cheap. These are all considerations that must be accounted for to get these engines up to the 80-90hp range that can be easily achieved by the Jawa and the Italian GM engines. These Jawa and GM weigh about 60lb in the raw form no clutch, what do the 450s weigh. Are the karts easy to drive with a 450 water cooled engine stuffed in the chassis. They look really cramped and elbow cracking too me. A laydown Jawa will tuck in the frame real nice and out of harms way, no radiator to mess with either. Everybody has their own way of doing things and that is cool. The hot rod 450 with a supercharger would be good with just a 15lb weight addition. But whats a supercharger and the mods for it gonna cost?
 
I know there is a five hundred stroker kit for the 450. Buy stroker iam assuming it must be a new crank or is it just bored oversize. Do they make 15-16 to1 pistons? What about different cam grinds can you change lifts and durations to make a more torque engine or a top end horsepower type engine. Custom Engine cases to eliminate tranny and weight. Alky carb setups and custom manifolds. These are the parts I saw mentioned in the previous posts and the ones they were talking about. Yeah you can buy the trashed out ready to build 450 cheap but then you got all these costs to figure in the equation too. What about head work , just experiment and ruin a few till you get it right I guess, heads are cheap. These are all considerations that must be accounted for to get these engines up to the 80-90hp range that can be easily achieved by the Jawa and the Italian GM engines. These Jawa and GM weigh about 60lb in the raw form no clutch, what do the 450s weigh. Are the karts easy to drive with a 450 water cooled engine stuffed in the chassis. They look really cramped and elbow cracking too me. A laydown Jawa will tuck in the frame real nice and out of harms way, no radiator to mess with either. Everybody has their own way of doing things and that is cool. The hot rod 450 with a supercharger would be good with just a 15lb weight addition. But whats a supercharger and the mods for it gonna cost?


Well I absolutely am not disagreeing with you that the Jawa is one bad to the bone kart ready engine. It's costs are reasonable, it's power is specific to speedway racing ect. All I'm saying is. The average guy can compete at a much lower cost with the 450. I don't want people reading threads that make claims they can't keep up or they won't work or there are no parts ect. The driver teams that can hook up 100 HP coming off a corner have to deal with the MPH and forces to bring all that back down and go left. A STOCK 450 will produce all the HP a kart can handle.

There's another thread with a gentalman that built his for under 2,000 I built this RMZ 450 3 years ago when the rules were changed to allow them. I bought the engine for 500.00 I bought a kart for another 500.00 I cut the tranny off with a chop saw. I built the whole thing with a drill press and 0 machining knowledge or equipment.

Itll fry the tire off at will. I had to run it half throttle to keep from running over the 131's It built tremendous HP and torque, My problem was slowing it down to make a good entry not getting up off the corner. I've run it to the rev limiter it never failed me. Fire up every time just lay me in the seat center off right off Idle.






Buy one build one have fun go for bragging rights ect ect ect. I hope to see a pile of Jawa's Honda's YZ's Wankles BRC's Sudams. It's all good.
 
Maybe you should consider running front brakes with a proportioning master cylinders set up. Thats what i want to do on mine .A left front will also help set the kart up entering and thru the corner. You could even put another manuel valve to proportion the right front for a little help there also. Dial the fronts at about 40% with about 25 on the right and 75 on the left. That leaves 60% of the overall breaking in the rear if its to loose dial in a little more front or the reverse on being tight. These are just fine tunes when the chassis and tires are as good as they can be. With this much hp you need all the breaking force you can get to set up for corner entry. Iam also working on a new stering syestem for the karts that I hope will be comming out soon on a on a offset chissis now being produced. Real nice looking kart ya got there.
 
Here is what I know from my own experience. A crf450r with the tranny on a 2000 twister chassis with wore out Vegas and a home built wedge can run with the BEST in the business. I came across the scales at about 450-460#. Ran on 110 octane. I started 14th spun the tires when the green dropped and fell to 18th (last). Before a late caution (white flag), I was running Yow down. Sarchet was checking out with Decker hot on his heels BUT they both spun and stalled. Neither of em finished. To finish first, you must first finish!! It takes a lot more than an engine to win. Watch Seay's video on youtube of the Northeast Divisional. It was anybody's race to win or lose. Ben Taft was credited with a top 5 with a 125 sudam!! finish was wankel, wankel, crf450, cr250, 125. That order could have easily changed very quickly.
 
Web can produce just about any cam profile you want for a 450 adj. cam sprockets whatever suits you. Mx engines are very easy to come by and they are cheap, you can do the same with the 450s as the jawas buy whole bike strip what you need and sell the rest. Stock(which is very limited, 93 octane, restricting pipe and jetting, air box instead of filter,and low compression like 11:1)most are rated around 45-50 hp at the rear wheels. A pipe, high comp piston, k&n, custom ground cam, put it on meth and expect around 65-70 to the rear easy without stroking or boring or big valves. That's some cheap power and yes you can cut the tranny off and lose weight, you can also get most parts in 1-2 days.
 
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