Kart race engines vs. the big displacement....

A top UAS package isn't necessary newer stuff. It is all in what you know. I mean look at what Jack and Mike won on at Daytona. His stuff isn't new but they know how to set it up. Get whatever package you want it doesn't matter. If you tire program and your setup isn't right then you can have 30 more horsepower than anyone you Aren't going to win. It's that simple.

Frankie
 
I've seen whole packages on here for sale for $4000-$5000 that with the right driver tires and setup could win any uas race and could consistently compete up front without a doubt you just got to have your money ready when the deal comes available. You don't have to buy new to win, who ever said that doesn't know what they are talking about.
 
Neo said:
It's not about being "able to compete". It's about taking every advantage you can to increase your potential for performance. I'm a fan of the air cooled 2cycles that are kart only engines. I don't make the rules. The rules have been changed over and over again, including larger and larger engines. It isn't bringing nearly as many new guys to karting as it is forcing current karters to dump their old stuff and buy new stuff. They can't stand by and let the rest of the world pass them by unless they are willing to quit.

STOP making new engine rules. Enough is enough. MX engines aren't cheap. JAWAs aren't cheap. Yea, you can go buy a used MX engine for $500 to $750 but it's used and it needs work. Go buy a case and a jackshaft and clutch...... Go have it made for a JAWA! It's BS. A bone stock 450 makes more hp than any fully modified Sudam ever will. You can still go modify the 450! 75hp is very realistic. The JAWA is more than that.


Grady, you keep saying the new engines aren't cheap, you like the old aircooled 2 strokes. How much would I have in getting a 131 stroker with dual carbs and Birky setup on my kart?
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My point is, people that have bought them, already own them. It isn't about how much something costs, it's the perception that you have to buy something new now that it has been proven to work....and work well.

The deal with the MX engine was it was supposed to bring new karters to us. It hasn't worked that way at all. It has forced veteran karters to buy new equipment so that they could keep pace. Don't forget, the 450+ engines get a HUGE weight break! That reinforces the considerations that they have from racers.

The sad thing is that they aren't spending their money with kart oriented business any more. It's going to people that don't reinvest a single dime into karting. With that said, I can buy a full open 142cc from Buller, everything, for a pile of money less than a brand new MX engine package, ready to race. The difference is upwards of $2000 and that's if the MX engine is stock. If it's modified, you can easily more than double that figure. The idea of getting a used MX engine for $500 and racing it for years without spending a pile of money is going to hurt karting. That is a fantasy that will bite 75% of those that believe it.

That's new for new. Used for used is different. The used market for MX stuff can be low. The problem is, none of that money makes it back to karting. It's gone. I do have a problem with that. If we don't support those that help support us, they will have no choice but to leave.

Mike
 
alvin l nunley said:
What should we tell these NASCAR engine builders? They talk in terms of the horsepower because they know that's what you'll understand. (at least they think you do) They know absolutely that their dyno only measures Torque and RPM.
Tell me why you mention a short stroke high reving engine.
If the data does not support the theory, get a new theory. It's hard to let go sometimes.
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Al its not about what I think I know its more about what you think you know. Every one is stupid your smart. Mike thinks the mathematical calculations required to measure force is totally different than the mathematical calculations you use to determain hp. To me they are both mathamatical calculations . You both have strange ways of seeing things. You think a jackshaft multiplys torque but doesnt effect hp even thou you state force is hp and torque is force. You confuse more than you teach. Oh yes and I mention short stroke and high reving engines 1 because Thats kinda what this thread is about. And second because some think torque is king and hp is not even a real force. If torque were all we needed to go fast we'd have tractor engines on our karts and race cars.
 
ttownwideglider said:
That's what sportsman classes are about keeping cost down. That's why the clone class is so big these days. The UAS is about the top of line equipment and most powerful engines money and innovation can create within the rules package. If a guy cannot afford to be competitive in this class go to the class you can afford. Everyone has different budgets and priorities on which they spend their hard earned cash. The UAS was developed for this reason and only the guys with lots of cash or those willing to sacrifice everything else to put all their cash into racing will be competitive in it. That also is why there will always be a limited number of people in this class. If you are willing to not be competitive and just drive around in the back , anyone can run in it. But most racers have the drive to win and there lies the truth of the situation. I myself am in this situation, if iam willing to spend all my money on racing I can afford to be competitive. But I aslo love to fish Bass tournaments and ride Harleys, so I must make a choice and I choose to race karts in the Yamaha class for this reason. Kart racing is expensive and pays very little in ruturn. AT least in my tournament fishing I have the opportunity to win substantial amounts of cash (20,000- 60,000) for the money invested. Thats not true in any form of racing. It cost 20 million to run a nascar for a season, that's why even the richest owners must have sponsorship. Karts are about the fun of the adrenalin rush from driving fast in a competitive atmosphere. This is reality and why I say race where you can afford to and enjoy the rush!!!!
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Don't kid yourself......they spend more more money, it's just in different areas. If you lose enough UAS karters to the "keeping up with the Jones' mentality", you have less people to race with week in and week out!

I don't know how long you've been doing this but I have had to travel 6hrs+ to have a place to race. It gets old at 3am on Sunday morning as you drive home with your head out the window to stay awake because you have a family at the house.

Mike
 
Iam not saying everything has to be barnd new just top quality stuff. For someone to be up front in UAS your stuff has to be quality stuff. Jacks equipment isnt new but its all top quality stuff. I am not disputing that set up and tires are a very important part of the package they are extremly impotant. But the whole package is a unit and everything has to be very good. I was talking about someone trying to come into the UAS with a good overall package and the total cost of everything required. Tires are very expensive in this class becuse of the big engines using them up super fast. Jack has spent a small fortune on his equipment over the years and taken very good care of it. He has also learned what it takes to make his stuff work with the best of them. He also has several powerplants for each class he runs in. He does most of his own engine work and has many years of experinece and expertice. I have a lot of respect for Jack and consider him a good buddy. The win couldnt have happened to a more deserving racer, iam very happy for him. Just trying to let all the guys considering the UAS know what kinda expense they are up against and all their options. And as Mike stated you dont just have equipment cost there are all the travling cost,motels fuel, trailer, tow vehical, entry fees .
 
alvin l nunley said:
PD Power said:
The final ratio is all that counts. Any desired ratio can be arrived at without the use of a jackshaft.
/QUOTE]
OK, tell me how to get a 10.5 gear ratio on a kart, with normal tires, without a jackshaft. 10-105 would be a 10.5 ratio but how would you fit that to a kart? Let's be realistic!
Now if you had 11.5 diameter tires? Of course with tires that big you would be changing your overall ratio.
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Al,
Try to stay withing the boundaries of normal gearing and function. Try to avoid such unlikely examples as you so often do, to prove some nearly absurd point.
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Oh no doubt it's expensive to race. I am pretty lucky to have all the stuff that I have. All my karting stuff was my dad's that he gave me right before he died this past June.
 
Frankie i was sorry to hear about your dad. I know you and your dad spent lot of time togather racing and enjoying being togather doing it. Thats a big part of why I love to race spending quality time with my son he a racer too. The expense ,work is worth every moment we share togather. We spend lots of time building our engines and preparing for a race. We both love the thrill of racing agianst all the other drivers and especially against each other. But that is bragging rights not about cash, the same with UAS no money. My son and I fish tournments togather and that about the money first and braggin rights second. We will usually win a good one once in a while if we can fish hard all year. Some pay as much as a new 60,000$ bass boat. That makes it much easier to support our habbit, unlike racing. If there was more money in winning a race I would be more apt to make it a pryority. As things are its pure money pit for just a lot of fun. Iam very suprised the UAS cant provide national races with sponsership that pay 5,000 to win or more. Even a new chassis and free tires for a season. With just around 500 to win that doesnt even pay expenses to travel to the race and buy tires an race fuel. This is the top divison in dirt kart racing isnt it. Cant you get chassis builders to put up a chassis and tire suppliers to put up a stock pile of tires to have a race in their names. Thats all about promotion in any sport isnt it. This would grow the class more than anything else that could be done. Just being a hobby is for sportsman classes. This is suppose to be the professional division. Needs sponsorship to help support the racers that win and spend their hard earned cash to compete.
 
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ttownwideglider said:
Frankie i was sorry to hear about your dad. I know you and your dad spent lot of time togather racing and enjoying being togather doing it. Thats a big part of why I love to race spending quality time with my son he a racer too. The expense ,work is worth every moment we share togather. We spend lots of time building our engines and preparing for a race. We both love the thrill of racing agianst all the other drivers and especially against each other. But that is bragging rights not about cash, the same with UAS no money. My son and I fish tournments togather and that about the money first and braggin rights second. We will usually win a good one once in a while if we can fish hard all year. Some pay as much as a new 60,000$ bass boat. That makes it much easier to support our habbit, unlike racing. If there was more money in winning a race I would be more apt to make it a pryority. As things are its pure money pit for just a lot of fun. Iam very suprised the UAS cant provide national races with sponsership that pay 5,000 to win or more. Even a new chassis and free tires for a season. With just around 500 to win that doesnt even pay expenses to travel to the race and buy tires an race fuel. This is the top divison in dirt kart racing isnt it.
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Well that's the funny/strange thing. Yes, IMO it is the top division BUT as you stated there is no money in the class, all the dollars go to the most popular stock classes. Most racers race because its a passion. I travelled to USA to race with the UAS guys, its just a passionate hobby. Prize money is just a bonus. Over here in Australia we rarely race for money, less than 4 times a year is for money.

Tim seems pretty confident about his vision to bring ex MX guys into the sport so we will wait and see.
 
Some of the best memories I have of my dad was at the track and on the track. The best one for me was when I beat him at Volusia speedway. He said that he let off so I could win but I know my dad and he wouldn't ever give me something it had to earned.

Karting is just a hobby for me. I'm not in for the money but it is a nice bonus to when and get money. Tim is definitely doing some great stuff with the MX engines. He has a pretty nice setup at his house.
 
ttownwideglider said:
There is no way a top competitive package can be had for 2000$.A top chassis is around 2500 and up then a body, tires, mychron, power plant and drive train. I have a lot more than 2000 in my Yamaha kart just to be competitive in that class. Your living in a dream world if you think that a Uas package can be put together for that amount. why did the Jawa package sell for somewhere around 15,000 recently, complete package. We are talking about complete package here top of the line everything. I know some of you think you can be competitive with mediocre equipment. But you are not that much better at set up and tire prep to beat the guys that have the best. That would be like me fishing out of a alum boat with a 25hp competating against guys with 21ft boats and 250hp engines. As I stated before there may be some people that are content to drive around in the back just to race in the UAS, but that's no fun for me. Iam trying to figure out a way to come up with the money to buy a Jawa or GM because I already have the chassis and all the other components. But at 4500-5000 for the power plant That's a tough deal to fly. But if Iam going to go there then I want a fighting chance. You don't think that the guys with top of the line equipment can set up a kart as good as you can, HA HA. I just spilling the cold hard facts here. My brother had a sprint car with a westmar 410 jj chassis and lots of set up talent and driving ability, but he had to worry about blowing up his engine leaning it out to make max power.The drivers with a extra powerplant and chassis in the trailer didn't. Therefore he won very little against andy Hillenberg with an unlimited budget, that is the facts myfriend. Racing is all about money everything else being equal. on a different note the Shootout just finished and a lot of okies won in their different classes. The Chilie bowl is starting next week. Gonna be some more great racing this year. Well see if Swindell can hold off the big dogs again this year.
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Mitch, Maybe it is me but it seems like you are trying to talk someone out of the UAS because it is too expensive. I remember a race this summer where a wankel was in the lead, then one of Stephen Gleasons PK250 was in the lead, Baldwins 4 stroke 250 was in the lead and Bergfelts 131 was in the lead. Now Bergfelts kart has to be 10 years old, so you can run in the lead with these older karts. 2 years ago, my Son was tied for 1st in the UAS, with Robbie with his Wankel, and I think Westerfield might have been in there with his 450. Stevie only had a 125 sudam in which he won the Prelude to the National which had a couple wankels in it. In fact the fastest kart on that nite may have well been a 116 that a young guy was racing. I think you said before that you never were a UAS member or ran with us. I probably am not reading you right but it seems like there is some sort of resentment towards the UAS and I don't understand why. Please don't judge the UAS by the BS on this site, which is by no means an offical UAS site. Judge it by the racers who are 99% awesome, if you have a problem at the track, they will be right there with you trying to fix it. Several times we have had engine, clutch, J/S problems and someone delivers one to our trailer. The bickering that goes on here doesn't not go on at the track. How Mike Grady and me interact on Bob's is probably a perfect example. Honestly I can not stand him most of the time on here, but if I was running a race or helping, Mike would be one of the 1st guys I would ask to help me. I really like how he handles himself at the track, it's the next day on here that we have problems!LOL Sorry for rambling, I will shut up, if I can, Steve Sr.
 
Hey Steve iam not trying to talk anyone out of the UAS just trying to make the newbies aware of what i have figured out about the class. I have never said the racers were not top shelf people. Iam sure their just like most racers in any class, good folks. If you read my statement what i have said is that the money payback is so small for such a big time class and investment in equipment. I have seen yamaha and clone races on here that pay 1000-2000 to win. Why cant UAS at least do the same if not more. I said i want to get a bigtime engine package to go UAS racing myself. I understand that racing is a passion thats in your blood its in mine. But for more to be able to do it and grow the class. Uas needs to supply the needs of the budget racers in the class. This is done by helping them to cover the costs they incur by suplementing them with somet ype of montary package. Help the guys by making it fesiable to offset some of the costs by winning a race or taking a podium. Such as 10 sets of new tires, a new chassis to keep or sell to go to the next race. The expenses are very steep for the average joe to keep up with. I know many forms of racing name their top races like (Burris shootout at Batesville) or (Phantom chassis classic at so in so) to get montary sponsership for the racers and the Manufactor writes it off as advertising. Thats the way many of our Fishing tournys are funded besides entry fees. Just saying if the only thing you get is bragging rites that dont go far to pay expenses.
 
Read the rules, or should I say Mission statement. This is a open class to a certon degree, we are not reqiured to run any products or logos. Think of it as a party with friends,then a race breaks out,it is held once a year someone has to be incharge, the winner gets to brag & beat on his chest till the next party.
 
ttownwideglider said:
Hey Steve iam not trying to talk anyone out of the UAS just trying to make the newbies aware of what i have figured out about the class. I have never said the racers were not top shelf people. Iam sure their just like most racers in any class, good folks. If you read my statement what i have said is that the money payback is so small for such a big time class and investment in equipment. I have seen yamaha and clone races on here that pay 1000-2000 to win. Why cant UAS at least do the same if not more. I said i want to get a bigtime engine package to go UAS racing myself. I understand that racing is a passion thats in your blood its in mine. But for more to be able to do it and grow the class. Uas needs to supply the needs of the budget racers in the class. This is done by helping them to cover the costs they incur by suplementing them with somet ype of montary package. Help the guys by making it fesiable to offset some of the costs by winning a race or taking a podium. Such as 10 sets of new tires, a new chassis to keep or sell to go to the next race. The expenses are very steep for the average joe to keep up with. I know many forms of racing name their top races like (Burris shootout at Batesville) or (Phantom chassis classic at so in so) to get montary sponsership for the racers and the Manufactor writes it off as advertising. Thats the way many of our Fishing tournys are funded besides entry fees. Just saying if the only thing you get is bragging rites that dont go far to pay expenses.
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There seems to be a slight miss conception here on what the UAS is right now. The UAS is not WKA or AMA or Wwo or any way shape or form a high dollar fully funded organization. We charge 40.00 to become a member, and 35.00 of that goes directly into the point fund for the GN, Jeff Davis has never to my knowledge excepted a dime for his part in points keeping. So those funds are also kicked in to the GN. What's left covers mostly postage and paper costs. Wher eon earth would we pull the cash to offer payouts or travel expenses or any kind of UAS backed monetary backing for racers.

Getting backing from tire distributors kart manufacturers ect is directly related to what's in it for them. We are a tiny fraction of the karting world. By no means do we have the clout to start making demands on any manufacturer to step up and payout.

This is a work in progress , The UAS used to be just a few local series around PA and OH, It grew mostly on the eastern sea board. The National Championship was brought about to help promote more interest in UAS open modified kart racing. WKA IKF all those traditional kart racing organizations were dropping the open class. again they were catering to where the money is the stocker classes.

7-8 years ago the UAS was mostly a Sudam spec class, every where you went it was out casts of the former WKA IKF and local open class racers looking for a place to race. I a very short time we've turned some heads Nation wide. We have become a growing class in a down turn economy. We've spread all across the country, Look at the Arizona event. absolutely fantastic, It was just about 5 years ago those guys out west were not even on the map as far as recognized UAS contenders. Now they have the seeds to begin to challenge the east coast in kart numbers and growth.

Burris sponsors allot of kart racing. But again they pay out where the money is in their best interest. same as your fishing sponsors. Put the money in where you'll gain the most return. Open modified racing isn't where Burris or Maxxis or Hoosier or Dunlop or Phantom or any other manufacturer is going to see a return on their investment.

We've cracked the window open with our GN. That's obvious. Manufacturers are starting to see some possible return in the future. It's going to take numbers thou. Your not going to draw numbers from the karting world. Your going to have to seek out a new audience . The MX engine is more than just a engine that's being converted to karting. It has tens of thousands of racers, spectators, sponsors, aftermarket venders, ect ect ect. We will pull from those numbers, It will take time, we will gain new members new faces new interests. were only just begining.

What you want can be achieved but not over night. It takes investment and a constant never ending forward push, No doubt we'll gain a few speedway racers, but those guys are in the same boat we are. small unknown and not mainstream. Open modified kart racing with the MX engines may not be your choice. But it will benefit you directly. JMO.
 
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