Stumped out what chassis to buy

i would think/hope these things would get worked out in the development stages by the factory drivers. Only proves the point that some karts are just pumped out too quickly without the proper R&D just to make a buck. if it ain't better than your previous chassis without the understanding what/why the chassis works and what doesn't and isn't it a definite improvement over the last model why was it produced in the first place?
If your goal is to keep offering a new flavor of the month you will have to start settling on some flavors that don't work.
 
I am PRC guy. They do have top notch equipment and support staff .
Can't really disagree with Jeremy though .
The chassis should be well tested . It should also be a good fit for the racer , not just the test pilot's .
 
i would think/hope these things would get worked out in the development stages by the factory drivers. Only proves the point that some karts are just pumped out too quickly without the proper R&D just to make a buck. if it ain't better than your previous chassis without the understanding what/why the chassis works and what doesn't and isn't it a definite improvement over the last model why was it produced in the first place?
If your goal is to keep offering a new flavor of the month you will have to start settling on some flavors that don't work.

I am PRC guy. They do have top notch equipment and support staff .
Can't really disagree with Jeremy though .
The chassis should be well tested . It should also be a good fit for the racer , not just the test pilot's .

Really not trying to argue on Bob's or deter from the original post... but I'm not sure where this thought process stems from. As a reputable builder and probably the most well known manufacturer in the industry, don't you think we would spend hours & hours and thousands of dollars in testing & R&D work? I can almost guarantee we put more into our development program than any manufacturer in the industry.

I've been at PRC for a decade and any chassis we've developed during that time has been rigorously tested for at least 8+ months. This includes CAD modeling, chassis dynoing, on track testing, etc. There would never be a next-gen chassis produced without knowing 100% that it CAN be better than its predecessor. However, this doesn't always lead into customer demand as some are more willing to stick with what they have and what they know because every chassis design will have it's own characteristics and things it likes with setup, tire program, and even driver input... And again, since karting is SO tire dependent nowadays folks are more willing to stick with what they know, rather than what's new and COULD be faster if all is right. This leads into the reason the Recon was brought back - due to extremely high customer demand AND the fact that the jig was still in place due to the ongoing production of the MINecon chassis (which squashes any ability to bring back the Triton even though it is extremely favorable from our customers).

I, myself have raced every Phantom chassis beginning with the Nemesis, and since I've been employed here I have always rode whatever is newest in production. I've won races on every kart I've rode in many different conditions at several different tracks. I am not a pro driver. I am not given anything when it comes to my personal race program. If it were up to me I'd be riding a DEUCE right now because I had more success with it & preferred it more than any kart I've ever rode (contrary to most racer's opinion who thought the Deuce was a flop), but I cannot because I need to ride whatever kart is in production for obvious reasons.


As for those of you saying "look at what wins the big races"... y'all do realize most of the "big names" that are winning the "big races" are on sponsored rides, right? Most of those guys don't care what they're riding and can win on any brand, they just ride whatever the person or company helping them wants them to ride. Most of the teams at some of these big events are helped tremendously in terms of sponsorship whether its with funds, karts, engines, tires, whatever.

PRC has NEVER given a kart to anyone as sponsorship, and we DO NOT have a factory driver or team (Harrill has not ran a kart out of his shop since Tod Miller quit driving 12 +/- years ago). A lot of folks think Tod has a factory deal, but the simple fact is he is an Authorized PRC Distributor and has always been loyal & dedicated to Phantom. Again, he nor anyone else receives sponsorship from PRC. The reason for this is because Harrill has always elected to sponsor EVENTS to help ALL racers involved rather than pick and choose certain drivers and teams and neglect the rest to avoid any kind of favoritism.

I just wanted to address a few of the statements on here that can be misleading or completely false. I am rarely on 4cycle anymore, so if you need me feel free to call PRC Monday thru Thursday, text me on our hotline, reach out to us on Facebook, or directly message my personal racing Facebook page any time.
 
if you don't have factory drivers who tests the chassis to work out what works and what doesn't? could that be the problem?
the development of the wiggy bar, a recalled chassis, the Deuce quickly being phased out for the 83 walled Scythe only to be quickly phased out for the 95 version. as well as re-releasing the Recon.
Why doesn't Armstrong choose the Deuce if it is/was a better kart than the Recon?
I know several phantom drivers who personally told me the advice was to purchase the latest chassis.
sorry you're going to have a hard time to convince me that these karts are developed as you claim.
I have nothing against Phantom and respect all they have done for Karting. i own several of your products but choose not to buy your chassis for the above stated reasons.
 
if you don't have factory drivers who tests the chassis to work out what works and what doesn't? could that be the problem?
the development of the wiggy bar, a recalled chassis, the Deuce quickly being phased out for the 83 walled Scythe only to be quickly phased out for the 95 version. as well as re-releasing the Recon.
Why doesn't Armstrong choose the Deuce if it is/was a better kart than the Recon?
I know several phantom drivers who personally told me the advice was to purchase the latest chassis.
sorry you're going to have a hard time to convince me that these karts are developed as you claim.
I have nothing against Phantom and respect all they have done for Karting. i own several of your products but choose not to buy your chassis for the above stated reasons.

1. We have a network of 20+ Authorized Dealers throughout the USA whom we work extremely close with at developing our chassis. This includes tracks in the northeast, midwest, and obviously southeast with their drivers and customers behind the wheel of prototypes on every tire brand including Maxxis & Burris. We get input from many drivers in several race conditions to get the most out of our on-track testing program.

2. -The Wiggy Bar was made to enhance a chassis that was already good and the ICON won an insane amount of races and manufacturer's trophies (before and after the Wiggy Bar)
-The recall happened with the Gauntlet which was, in my opinion, ahead of its time because it was introduced during a period where there was a large discrepancy in those who knew how to work on tires and those that did not. The kart worked well with a tire program. I know of someone who is winning races in 2022 on a Gauntlet.
-The Deuce was phased out due to customer demand. If they're not buying a product, and want something else, you must provide the customer what they want. Folks just couldn't figure out how to adjust their tire program and setup to accommodate the completely different chassis geometry of the Deuce, so they gave up on it.
-The .083 Scythe was NEVER phased out and is still in production. The .095 was introduced as a sister chassis because a few of those "big name guys" rallied for a thicker wall chassis for the higher biting tracks.
-And again... the Recon was put back into production due to CUSTOMER DEMAND and availability of the original jig.

3. Daniel Armstrong drives for Tod Miller who is an Authorized PRC Distributor and rides a current production chassis for obvious reasons. He rode the Deuce when it was in production. They now prefer the Recon due to it's user friendliness which is a big contributing factor into the chassis' popularity and recent comeback.

4. What kind of business would not recommend you to purchase a product that they believe and KNOW (due to R&D) is better (than what you have)? This is the reason new chassis are recommended, but we ALWAYS help any of our customers no matter what chassis they're on. Heck, I spent 30 minutes on the phone with a gentleman yesterday helping him dial in his 20 year old Nemesis.

5, Other than a "hunch" or personal opinion, what evidence do you have that we just throw some tubes together and call it the next great thing to increase sales? That couldn't be further from the truth... If you could only witness the amount of effort, time, resources, endless amount of dollars, and pure dedication Harrill Wiggins devotes to testing and trying to improve on what he already has you would understand. Did you ever see the video we produced when the Recon was introduced on how many prototypes were cut up and thrown in the scrap pile? Maybe that puts things into perspective.

By no means am I saying PRC is any better than any other manufacturer or business in the industry. Just trying to dispute false claims and negativity surrounding this post directed to PRC for no apparent reason. I understand there will be lovers, there will be haters. There are Ford guys, and Chevy guys. I can't convince every one to like PRC or purchase our products, that's not what I'm after. I am taking the time so there is clarity and factual evidence to support an argument in favor of Phantom Racing Chassis.


And back to what I originally posted... what other manufacturers are on Bob's 4cycle, supporting the website, and standing by their products? I haven't been on here as much as I should, but I plan to moving forward!
 
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if you don't have factory drivers who tests the chassis to work out what works and what doesn't? could that be the problem?
the development of the wiggy bar, a recalled chassis, the Deuce quickly being phased out for the 83 walled Scythe only to be quickly phased out for the 95 version. as well as re-releasing the Recon.
Why doesn't Armstrong choose the Deuce if it is/was a better kart than the Recon?
I know several phantom drivers who personally told me the advice was to purchase the latest chassis.
sorry you're going to have a hard time to convince me that these karts are developed as you claim.
I have nothing against Phantom and respect all they have done for Karting. i own several of your products but choose not to buy your chassis for the above stated reasons.

For someone who “has nothing against Phantom”, you sure have a lot of negative things to say about the company….
 
Its me, were winning with a gauntlet in 2022.... Think about that... LOL but hey, thats okay.

Best go kart ever made was the Duece, its not Phantoms fault nobody wants to test and try off the wall setups.

At the end of the day, regardless of what anyone wants to think, chassis don't matter. You can think they do, you can assume what you want about any chassis design and how **** looks, but again the only damn thing that matters is them 4 black tires you bolt on .

Ill argue that till the day I die. You can't change a chassis or motor (unless its locking up) and gain three quarters of a second. You wanna know what you can change and pick up that much speed, the tires. What a concept.
 
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-The recall happened with the Gauntlet which was, in my opinion, ahead of its time because it was introduced during a period where there was a large discrepancy in those who knew how to work on tires and those that did not. The kart worked well with a tire program. I know of someone who is winning races in 2022 on a Gauntlet.
You know, it's funny I revisted the design of the Guantlet here recently. And, you're spot on. It resembles more modern chassis in a lot of ways. Funny how design of chassis over the last 10 years gravitated toward an older design. But, still retaining the things that make them work.

As I mentioned in this thread some of the top karts share design elements of karts that are 15 years old, and I don't mean simple things. I mean, like front hoop location and design, or front seat bar placement and design. Along with bar connections and 1.250 tubing has been one of the staples of a fast kart. It's also funny that the Guantlet besides the front hoop design is VERY similar to the Phenom only released 4-5 years later and that Chassis before the Triton was considered one of the most user friendly karts. I can absolutely see a Guantlet working today. It looks significantly stiffer and more fast reacting than a lot of the chassis of it's time.

But, just like this thread. There is no support for these older karts, so almost no one recommends anything older than a 2015 when someone new asks. Let alone someone that is currently racing, they're always encouraged to get the newest kart to make it easier for support teams to help them. And, of course as a business they have to make money. A new kart for the ones that can afford them is better than no kart for someone that wants one period. The thousands and thousand in support teams for a product don't pay off the less people using it. So it's not smart business to keep supporting a product less and less people use even if it's actually better. So that's why they don't support the Deuce, good business. I'm sure Harril has advisors and they know when a product is no longer profitable, so putting resources into it isn't smart business in an economy that's already struggling.
 
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Your a Riot, killin me here. Dont you ride Charger?? Why all the dismay towards Phantom?? I ride Umax and not gonna bash another chassis cause of what "Pros" may tell me. Ive been led the wrong way from a few certain "Pros".. too...
i used to ride a charger. the OG poster was stumped out of what NEW chassis to buy. He/She was asking for opinions so i gave them mine. then someone brought up A 2012 Phantom that i don't believe is made anymore. Really??? i gave my reasons why I wouldn't choose a Phantom. Not going to kowtow to anybody even if they do work for a kart company. Hes a salesman for phantom of course he's going to push Phantom, It's his job. do a search on this site you will find plenty of upset customers. he should read those comments and see what they need to do to make the company better. if they have, good for them. I run a Slack if you read my posts above. they have stuck by their design give excellent customer support. make their own and many other kart company's components and make a very user friendly kart very capable of winning several top burris races. to each their own.
 
i used to ride a charger. the OG poster was stumped out of what NEW chassis to buy. He/She was asking for opinions so i gave them mine. then someone brought up A 2012 Phantom that i don't believe is made anymore. Really??? i gave my reasons why I wouldn't choose a Phantom. Not going to kowtow to anybody even if they do work for a kart company. Hes a salesman for phantom of course he's going to push Phantom, It's his job. do a search on this site you will find plenty of upset customers. he should read those comments and see what they need to do to make the company better. if they have, good for them. I run a Slack if you read my posts above. they have stuck by their design give excellent customer support. make their own and many other kart company's components and make a very user friendly kart very capable of winning several top burris races. to each their own.
Have you ever rode a Phantom chassis?

When you produce more chassis then anyone in the karting industry, you're going to have more upset customers then someone who sells 50 karts a year. That's simple math. And the majority of people's complaints come from there own doing. I don't believe the complaint box at PRC has enough cards in it to find a consistent "problem" that needs to be addressed.

Phantom, like many kart manufacturers, gives excellent customer support, make all of their parts in house, and builds a kart capable of winning any race on any tire.

PRC's job is to sell chassis and meet customer demand (within reason). Every chassis that is released has struggled against its predecessor, until it was more understood. If you aren't pushing the envelope to be revolutionary and find more speed, yea you might keep people happy with a "user friendly" chassis, but when the chips are on the table, "user friendly" doesnt equal raw speed. Finding that extra quarter tenth a lap, or 2 tenths over a 20 lap run in chassis design is what sets the best apart from the rest. If demand for "user friendly" is high enough, which it has been the last few years, then adjustments will be made to meet customer demand, as mentioned above. There was a time when 1 3/8" right side rail chassis were the latest craze. Produced a ton of speed, but a lot of unhappy people that couldn't find consistency. Hence why the market transitioned back to softer designs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you certainly have yours. But when your opinion ignores facts like James outlined above, it kind of makes it useless.

For the OP, if you are riding a 21' Scythe, I don't feel as though a "new" kart is going to make you any faster. If it was me, I would save the $3000 and try to identify where my program is lacking. If you are 2 tenths off on the Scythe, switching to a Slack, Ultramax, Charger, etc isnt going to gain you 2 tenths overnight.

***NOTE - I don't even ride a PRC or own a PRC product. The last PRC chassis I owned was a 2012 Triton. I have never even purchased a brand new chassis from PRC. I spend a lot of money with Slack every year...none of it on chassis either :)***
 
Have you ever rode a Phantom chassis?

When you produce more chassis then anyone in the karting industry, you're going to have more upset customers then someone who sells 50 karts a year. That's simple math. And the majority of people's complaints come from there own doing. I don't believe the complaint box at PRC has enough cards in it to find a consistent "problem" that needs to be addressed.

Phantom, like many kart manufacturers, gives excellent customer support, make all of their parts in house, and builds a kart capable of winning any race on any tire.

PRC's job is to sell chassis and meet customer demand (within reason). Every chassis that is released has struggled against its predecessor, until it was more understood. If you aren't pushing the envelope to be revolutionary and find more speed, yea you might keep people happy with a "user friendly" chassis, but when the chips are on the table, "user friendly" doesnt equal raw speed. Finding that extra quarter tenth a lap, or 2 tenths over a 20 lap run in chassis design is what sets the best apart from the rest. If demand for "user friendly" is high enough, which it has been the last few years, then adjustments will be made to meet customer demand, as mentioned above. There was a time when 1 3/8" right side rail chassis were the latest craze. Produced a ton of speed, but a lot of unhappy people that couldn't find consistency. Hence why the market transitioned back to softer designs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you certainly have yours. But when your opinion ignores facts like James outlined above, it kind of makes it useless.

For the OP, if you are riding a 21' Scythe, I don't feel as though a "new" kart is going to make you any faster. If it was me, I would save the $3000 and try to identify where my program is lacking. If you are 2 tenths off on the Scythe, switching to a Slack, Ultramax, Charger, etc isnt going to gain you 2 tenths overnight.

***NOTE - I don't even ride a PRC or own a PRC product. The last PRC chassis I owned was a 2012 Triton. I have never even purchased a brand new chassis from PRC. I spend a lot of money with Slack every year...none of it on chassis either :)***
You sound dumb what kinda logic is this....
 
Have you ever rode a Phantom chassis?

When you produce more chassis then anyone in the karting industry, you're going to have more upset customers then someone who sells 50 karts a year. That's simple math. And the majority of people's complaints come from there own doing. I don't believe the complaint box at PRC has enough cards in it to find a consistent "problem" that needs to be addressed.

Phantom, like many kart manufacturers, gives excellent customer support, make all of their parts in house, and builds a kart capable of winning any race on any tire.

PRC's job is to sell chassis and meet customer demand (within reason). Every chassis that is released has struggled against its predecessor, until it was more understood. If you aren't pushing the envelope to be revolutionary and find more speed, yea you might keep people happy with a "user friendly" chassis, but when the chips are on the table, "user friendly" doesnt equal raw speed. Finding that extra quarter tenth a lap, or 2 tenths over a 20 lap run in chassis design is what sets the best apart from the rest. If demand for "user friendly" is high enough, which it has been the last few years, then adjustments will be made to meet customer demand, as mentioned above. There was a time when 1 3/8" right side rail chassis were the latest craze. Produced a ton of speed, but a lot of unhappy people that couldn't find consistency. Hence why the market transitioned back to softer designs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and you certainly have yours. But when your opinion ignores facts like James outlined above, it kind of makes it useless.

For the OP, if you are riding a 21' Scythe, I don't feel as though a "new" kart is going to make you any faster. If it was me, I would save the $3000 and try to identify where my program is lacking. If you are 2 tenths off on the Scythe, switching to a Slack, Ultramax, Charger, etc isnt going to gain you 2 tenths overnight.

***NOTE - I don't even ride a PRC or own a PRC product. The last PRC chassis I owned was a 2012 Triton. I have never even purchased a brand new chassis from PRC. I spend a lot of money with Slack every year...none of it on chassis either :)***
Not saying anything bad about phantom, they do a great job at helping their racers but when the phantom dealers and even the sales manager doesn't even run the scythe, than that should say something bout the kart. Just my understanding
 
My .02- Pick a chassis/brand that you can get help from someone, whether local or not, and most people would be fine.

Now for the fun part and my version of history- @James@PRC

First things first, accept that the Recon was a good thing for almost every PRC customer in 2016/2017. Circa end of 2017/2018 the people voted not just with PRC but mostly across the industry for a harder biting and "softer" chassis. HOWEVER, not all "083's" are created equal, not all "1.125's" are created equal, not all "harder biting's" are created equal. Fact is the information/tuning is very different from a fundamental level when you look at tires when you end up down this rabbit hole. You give the people what they want, and they can't consistently figure them out. So the default is who has the best information, who's the hot tire program, who's got the latest inside information.

Most seem to have forgotten the state of the karting industry in 2016/2017 and the sheer number of Recons that were on the market.

Fast forward through the Minecon, people complained about the Deuce, even when PRC was telling people to stop setting them up like a Recon or a 60+ left side chassis of a different brand, and people just didn't listen/didn't follow through on the tire information and tuning characteristics to make them work, or the Deuce was simply a little too far beyond the workable range for the majority of the karting public. Is that a PRC problem or a People problem? ObViOuSlY a PRC problem, cause hey, never the peoples problem. I remember PRC selling Recon's in 2019 in a stripped down package because hey, why not try and give the people what they want. Start the "but you already made this chassis you can't go back crowd". So, down the rabbit hole to build a chassis that gives the people what they want.

And then the 083 Scythe is available in clear after all, as if giving the people what they wanted was finally being rewarded. Welp, with a harder biting, softer chassis, comes the inevitable problem of maintaining a tire program that can span the highest of high bite to the lowest of low bite. If people can't decide what tire to normally run, they'll struggle even more on a kart that is harder biting, and "softer". So now PRC edits the Scythe and makes it stiffer and gives the people what they want. Oh boy, not this again.

Now you have a chassis available that is the opposite of what the people wanted just a year before. Now, as the "PRC is the bad guy" crowd continues to circulate, PRC says hey, tell us what you want and within reason we will make it happen. Maybe some of you see the plot now, those that don't never will. So now again, PRC gives the people what they want. As if they haven't worn out the welcome mat already.

Now the Recon is back in production and the people that wanted it, well, I guess they got what they want because I haven't heard any of the conspiracy theories about those darn 22 Recons just aren't what those silver ones were. BUT, the "PRC is the bad guy" crowd has had enough. They wanted a softer chassis, they wanted a stiffer chassis, and then they wanted another NEW chassis, because well, if you don't build a NEW one then they can't complain that you told them to buy the NEW one.

Well that was fun. BUT back to the topic at hand. PRC would still be receiving the "PRC is the bad guy" flack I believe just about any way. In a perfect world, maybe PRC doesn't listen to what the people want, and then they get criticized but so be it. Maybe they build the 095 Scythe against popular demand for a "083" type kart. Would they have built the 095 kart if they didn't design the 083 Scythe first? I don't know. Maybe people would have responded how they did going from the Triton to the Recon in 15/16 and figured the "095" out. You'd still have the same people saying its not this or its not that because people simply aren't as brand loyal as they used to be. Maybe they would have built a different chassis, one that gave the people exactly what they wanted. 50/50 whether it would be a flop or a hit. You'd still possibly be having this same conversation today.

Curiously Charger builds 3 versions of the Prodigy, the other builders (Millennium, Platinum, Ultramax, Kinetik) offer both 1.25 and 1.125 versions, and then Slack and Premier have their design. Sure, PRC is offering the different models in a different way, but compared to the other builders offering the 1.125 and 1.25 chassis or the 083, 095 how is it different than one dealer riding the 1.125 and one dealer riding the 1.25, or the 083/095. I will tell you from experience they're on different tire programs and different setups, and the information is not going to be the same. But sure, build them different and call them all the same and it does seem to be less of a hammering point from the outside. From the inside its all the same.

I sold and rode Kinetik's 2018-2021. I went back to PRC because of information available through a PRC distributor that I trusted to get my program back on sure footing.

Truth is most people simply want to drink the koolaid from whoever they can get it from and run 3-5th and have a shot to win a race once in a while. Some are loyal and will ride what they ride whether they have success or not. Few will take a chassis and make it work without constant outside intervention.

Pick a chassis/brand that you can get help from someone, whether local or not, and most people would be fine.
 
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Stan Caroline kart. He and sons do nice work and are good people. Was offered one to ride but had already started selling slacks at the time. I wouldn’t be afraid to try one of it doesn’t bother you only being one of a few people that have it.

Hard to beat a slack tho if you buy from someone who can support it.

Jared, thanks for the kind words.


Any comments on the Champion Performer?

If you are interested in one of our karts you can check us out currently on facebook and instagram at Champion Performance Products, we are working on a website and should have that live in the near future. We try to offer a kart that is "refreshing" to the karting industry and offers some things that other manufactures just simply don't have at this time. We build our karts to have the adjustments needed to be fast on all types of track conditions and to allow the racer to dial the feel of the chassis to their liking or to what fits their tire program. We also have some unique features that make it very user friendly for the racer when mounting your seat or making adjustments. If anyone has any questions or would like to inquire about a kart, please let me know.

Thanks
Stan

Stanley J Caroline III

Phone: (412) 638-3150
Email: championperformancellc@gmail.com

 
Jared, thanks for the kind words.




If you are interested in one of our karts you can check us out currently on facebook and instagram at Champion Performance Products, we are working on a website and should have that live in the near future. We try to offer a kart that is "refreshing" to the karting industry and offers some things that other manufactures just simply don't have at this time. We build our karts to have the adjustments needed to be fast on all types of track conditions and to allow the racer to dial the feel of the chassis to their liking or to what fits their tire program. We also have some unique features that make it very user friendly for the racer when mounting your seat or making adjustments. If anyone has any questions or would like to inquire about a kart, please let me know.

Thanks
Stan

Stanley J Caroline III
Phone: (412) 638-3150
Email: championperformancellc@gmail.com
Thank you! I’ll check them out.
 
yes I purchased a Banshee new back in the day. I own several phantom products accu-toe etc. they have top quality components and top quality manufacturing. Glad to hear they are giving assistance to their customers. Fact remains I do not see Scythes or Deuces on the podiums at the big money races where top level drivers know tires and how to set up chassis correctly.
 
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