Track Tac

why isn't bracket racing more popular in Karting?

And looking at all these posts about "bracket" racing further proves that different folks have different interpretations. Our Roebling Road bracket class (again) was based on CONSISTENCY. No dial in times and the only gauges permitted would be temp gauges. No tachs, no timing devices (watches), etc. to give any added advantages. Just keep your next lap as close a time as your last. Sandbagging has no benefit. Winning or losing falls solely on the driver unless something breaks. And #65, how on earth can it divide karting when a single class can encompass so many preferences? In my opinion, a gazillion classes with as many different minimum weights divide karting, not a single class that invites all comers. JMHO -Alan-
 
71 chevy said:
if you are running fixed brackets, then it should be easy. the way it works is you run in the bracket. if you go too fast at anytime, ie you break out, you start at the back of the next faster bracket, or at the back of whatever bracket you broke into.
that way you can hold a little to account for consistency issues but it wont help if you fall back because to catch back up youll have to break out. and you score no points and get put in the next category up.
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The key here is "If you go to fast at anytime". If you go to fast in the feature.... what is the penalty? You cant move up to the next bracket that night. So does the driver still get to keep the win for the night? Next week is a different story. The concept is interesting, but just not policable.

And to Someone's comments........ That looks like the best way to work it. That format could possibly work if the slower brackets are running for trophies.
 
racer47 said:
The key here is "If you go to fast at anytime". If you go to fast in the feature.... what is the penalty? You cant move up to the next bracket that night. So does the driver still get to keep the win for the night? Next week is a different story. The concept is interesting, but just not policable.

And to Someone's comments........ That looks like the best way to work it. That format could possibly work if the slower brackets are running for trophies.
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A beak out lap is a loss of all points.next fellow who don't break out, wins.

I love the idea of bracket racing .the two bracket guys in my club are me at 510 lbs and a big block and the other guy at 350 ISH lbs and a world formula.yet e can have similar times and fun racing.
 
Who's going to buy all this timing equipment?
The truth finally come out why this thread started.
Might work on Sprint, road course racing, want no part of it on dirt oval racing.
 
Timing equipment?

We have transponders on every Kart at our track.is this not the case with dirt racing?

Yes the truth came out.
My Kart is heavy, old and i have a non sanctioned, non blue printed engine, running on donated tires.
Without brackets I'm either lap traffic or on the side lines spectating
With brackets,i and others like me can be out there having fun
 
I believe this format you guys are talking about would really pi$$ off alot of racers on dirt ovals. You say they would race based on times they qualified at, so if they were to turn 3-4 tenths faster in the feature, they would basically break out and be DQ. I dont know if you watch or run dirt ovals, but its pretty common for guys to pick up 3-4 tenths or more between qualifying and features, some of the leaders can pick up a full second off their times on tracks that start early in the day qualifying and run features later on, especially at bigger races with higher kart counts. Why would anyone want to spend a few hundred in fuel, gate/entry fees and other expenses, or any amount of money, only to be penalized if they happen to have a good run and do what we all try to do when we go race, which is be fast and shave as much time off our lap times as possible?? It does not make sense to penalize racers for just being fast, thats the main reason you won't see this format working on dirt ovals in any of the bigger series races or sanctioned races....maybe at some backyard tracks or small local tracks, but more serious racers wont waste their time messing with that format, they'll find somewhere else to race or another sport to get into IMO.
 
At my track there is an open bracket, no breakout.i guess the heavy hitters that have the heads up money can duel it out in that class. Still would be run what you brung hope you brung enough , and engine rules would be open, no weight limit etc.
 
71 chevy said:
Timing equipment?

We have transponders on every Kart at our track.is this not the case with dirt racing?

Yes the truth came out.
My Kart is heavy, old and i have a non sanctioned, non blue printed engine, running on donated tires.
Without brackets I'm either lap traffic or on the side lines spectating
With brackets,i and others like me can be out there having fun
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No, the majority of dirt tracks dont have AMB lap counting systems
 
Well I look at this from a sprint racing perspective I think bracket racing wood be great! Its the only way I could race and be competitive at my local track. I think they could add a couple 10 lap races to the mix, set the brackets to allow for quick laps ( i.e. a lap where everything goes perfect ) and DQ anyone that breaks out. It would allow a chance for someone to race twice with the same equipment and let people like me that don't fall into any class to race. I am enough overweight for our highest weight class that any money spent on entry fees would be a donation. As far as sandbagging it can and will happen just as cheating does if someone will go to that extreme for a piece of shiny plastic they will do it no matter what the rules.
 
just my thoughts....you'd have to run several races using both systems....the "official" one would be the current model....then you take the lap times during these "test" races and carefully look at the times posted and see where the variance would be and see where the fall off and when the gains are the highest. this would be very time consuming but it would have to be done with the racers none-the-wiser....if you let them know in advance that your checking this, then you'll get the sandbagging right from the start.....but! if you take the time to carefully review the times and set your "DQ" level appropriately, then i think the bracket racing could work. along with that tho, is one thing that i totally disagree with.....

if you are listed in a bracket and you break out, then some advocate moving you to the next fastest or the fastest class. this is where i disagree and will get blasted....if you win or are subject to teching and your motor is declared illegal, you are DQ'ed....and you don't get a second chance. the same philosophy should be used here....if you go out and run and break out, then you're dq'ed....no exceptions, no excuses....you don't move forward to the next class or the fastest class. moving forward is unfair to the ones that went and run thier best to be placed in the correct bracket...

you take a chance when you sandbag and there has to be consequences when you try to buffalo your way through to a slower bracket. but this comes back to running several races and getting those times so that you can get a good idea on what it will take before a racer is dq'ed for breaking out. it might only be as much as 2 tenths, but like Weddle Racing says, varying track and weather conditions can cause racers to lose time and then again, those same conditions can cause a big boost in lap times.....

it's a fine line to attempt bracket racing, but if done right, then your going to have some very close racing! the other thing is that you'd have to time the karts every race.....because one improvement made today could change me from the slowest bracket to the fastest......

just my thougths....i like the idea of racing against others within my lap times....might mean the difference between the same people winning week after week and having new winners every race......
 
mikey56 said:
just my thoughts....you'd have to run several races using both systems....the "official" one would be the current model....then you take the lap times during these "test" races and carefully look at the times posted and see where the variance would be and see where the fall off and when the gains are the highest. this would be very time consuming but it would have to be done with the racers none-the-wiser....if you let them know in advance that your checking this, then you'll get the sandbagging right from the start.....but! if you take the time to carefully review the times and set your "DQ" level appropriately, then i think the bracket racing could work. along with that tho, is one thing that i totally disagree with.....

if you are listed in a bracket and you break out, then some advocate moving you to the next fastest or the fastest class. this is where i disagree and will get blasted....if you win or are subject to teching and your motor is declared illegal, you are DQ'ed....and you don't get a second chance. the same philosophy should be used here....if you go out and run and break out, then you're dq'ed....no exceptions, no excuses....you don't move forward to the next class or the fastest class. moving forward is unfair to the ones that went and run thier best to be placed in the correct bracket...

you take a chance when you sandbag and there has to be consequences when you try to buffalo your way through to a slower bracket. but this comes back to running several races and getting those times so that you can get a good idea on what it will take before a racer is dq'ed for breaking out. it might only be as much as 2 tenths, but like Weddle Racing says, varying track and weather conditions can cause racers to lose time and then again, those same conditions can cause a big boost in lap times.....

it's a fine line to attempt bracket racing, but if done right, then your going to have some very close racing! the other thing is that you'd have to time the karts every race.....because one improvement made today could change me from the slowest bracket to the fastest......

just my thougths....i like the idea of racing against others within my lap times....might mean the difference between the same people winning week after week and having new winners every race......
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Dirt changes all the time one week it may be fast next week it may be slow.
So are you going to buy $10,000.00 worth of lap timing equipment?
Plain and simple you want bracket racing, sell you kart stuff and go drag racing or move to sprint racing
Lets just everyone come to the track pay our entry fee's then had out first place ribbons to everyone
 
Our track can loose close to a second and a half for 90% of the field on certain conditions but others only lose half a second. If you compared everyone's times you'd have a mess on your hands, the whole field would be slower comparatively, but those that hit tires On stockers can turn as fast or faster lap times as limiteds and opens. Even Jr's are pushing those fast times of the stockers if they hit tires on the weird nights. Dirt just changes too much. Too much time and compensation for a system that isn't broken.

Some people wants everyone to be winners, well you're not all sunshine and rainbows. If you're not first your last, Ricky Bobby.
 
Happens all the time. People get into a sport and are not competitive, so they want to change everything to benefit them.
 
i'm not advocating changing anything.....it was my thoughts on bracket racing....and i know that a good timing system can be had for about $4000....that includes paying $1.00 for the timing strip that goes on the front fender of every kart...you can use two and get even better results. look for a thread on here about timing and scoring and you should be able to find the site that deals with this.

you're never going to get away from racers taking every advantage that they possibly can to win...some push the limits and then again, some literally blast this limit apart..

Dale Earnhardt: The strategy of racing for the top five and racing for the win is where everybody wants to be (but then he also said "my two favorite things in the world are my steering wheel and my Remington rifle).

Richard Petty: Cats know, comin out of four, they better be standin on it, else they'll be standin in it......

Mario Andretti: If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough.....

John Force: You win from the heart......

Ricky Bobby? He ain't got nuttin.....
 
Don't see it working. Everyone is focused on sandbagging during qualifying.
What about sandbagging during the race. I can see the little mirrors on the helmets
now.. Or there would be an amazing amount of he just by for the win at the flag...
 
harrym said:
Happens all the time. People get into a sport and are not competitive, so they want to change everything to benefit them.
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the way i see it , is having a format such as this where you can use oldf chassis,non blueprinted engines, use tires longer, will keep more people in the sport. not about competitiveness at all.

it may reduce all the complete sell out threads we see on here.
 
71 chevy said:
the way i see it , is having a format such as this where you can use oldf chassis,non blueprinted engines, use tires longer, will keep more people in the sport. not about competitiveness at all.

it may reduce all the complete sell out threads we see on here.
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It is about competitiveness. You even said so yourself, you might not want everyone ion the same playing field but you want others you're comparable to. You have people that want to race, and people that want to ride around real fast with other people for fun...
You're either competitive or you're not... It's called racing for a reason.
 
71 chevy said:
how is it handing out purple ribbons when there is only one winner per bracket ?
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You got me there. I was really only categorizing it as ‘along the lines of purple ribbons’, but it’s actually worse. You earn a participation ribbon by participating. The only real winner would be the winner of the top bracket, which is essentially just an open class which is fine.

Some drivers aren’t fast enough to run with the others up front, so they make a class and say if you go faster than us, you are disqualified. Then, they call someone a winner when there was a whole group of people he wasn’t even fast enough to run with. It’s like winning a consi race and trying to convince people it’s a main event. At least in a consi you can drive as quick as possible without worrying about breaking out.

71 chevy said:
how is it not racing when you are racing other people in your bracket who hopefully are running around the same times as you, and none of you can breakout or you lose all points
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The fact that you can go too fast and be penalized means it’s not racing. It’s a convoluted time trial with other karts in the way. It could be called a competition I guess, but it’s not a race.

71 chevy said:
how does it divide the sport when you can race any engine, any weight, any tire, in a bracket class?
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I, and many others, will not be running brackets. So, now you have Kart Racing and Kart Bracketing: that is a division in Karting.

Vintagequest said:
And #65, how on earth can it divide karting when a single class can encompass so many preferences? In my opinion, a gazillion classes with as many different minimum weights divide karting, not a single class that invites all comers. JMHO -Alan-
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It divides karting in the same way, because it creates more classes and separates karters in to the groups above. The only way it is less classes is if Racing goes away and all that is left is Bracketing. The one preference that gets left out is actual Kart Racing that most of us are doing now.

71 chevy said:
how would it expedite the decline of anything when one is able to actually afford to race??
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Any kart that leaves Kart Racing and goes to Kart Bracketing is 1 less kart in Kart Racing. If you bring a new person into Bracketing, that does not help the Racing numbers. It is the Kart Racing numbers that I am concerned with.

There is no real way to quantify what affordable is across the board, but you would be hard pressed to spend less on Bracketing than what I could on Racing stock classes.
 
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