why isn't bracket racing more popular in Karting?

[#65]

im not saying its the be all end all but i still think your sentiments are not well thought out. karting is obviously in decline so something is not working. the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I haven’t put much thought into brackets because it seems pretty obvious to me. It’s not racing!

There is a difference between change and progress. Creating a fundamental shift in the sport from racing to a bracket format is not a solution to save the sport. It is the downfall of legitimate Kart Racing.

If I was selling ice cream and a flavor wasn’t selling well, I wouldn’t get rid of the cream in an attempt to fix it. It wouldn’t be ice cream anymore. I would adjust the flavors to something that sells better.

no, this is not dividing karting. Im coming at this from a sprint perspective as that is what i race, and every class at my tracks has about 4-5 drivers and the gap between first and last is seconds per lap. brackets will increase participation by allowing CLOSE racing in an open format- it could bring new blood into the sport, and bring back people who have walked away from the sport.

Sprint racing can certainly magnify performance gaps. I’ve not even delved into the issues with the actual implementation of a bracket system like other people have, but these performance gaps will still be there, just masked by a screwy system and could morph into another problem. But, those don’t matter to me because running brackets is not racing so they won’t be my problems.

stock classes? thats humorous. whats stock about "box stock"? you bring a stock engine to a box stock class you are dead in the water. it would have been better to stay at home. that is not as affordable as you are trying to make it out to be, and it definitely does not promote close racing.

You really think I am naïve enough to not know this? I was making the differentiation between the traditional Stock classes as opposed to an Open or UAS type class. Specifically I was talking about a WKA/IKF blueprinted Flathead or an AKRA pro clone class, maybe even KT100’s and Animals though I don’t have as much experience with them. Stock classes are “stock” in the same way that bracket racing is “racing”.

what would promote close racing is a bracket where one is a second off the pace and all he has to do is add a cam or headers and be on pace. this would be more fun and competitive for the drivers involved, would lead to bigger , closer races, and would improve audience count.

So it makes it cheaper because if you are not fast enough, you can just spend money on parts to make more power? Where does that road lead? I don’t have to throw parts at my Flatheads because they are built to a rule set and are on par with my competitors. I’ve run the same ones with the same cams and headers for years. Of course they get the occasional rebuild, but not nearly as often as people are led to believe.

You won’t find any bigger fields or closer racing than on dirt ovals in stock classes, but they still don’t draw a crowd in most cases. Going to brackets won’t magically make karting a spectator driven sport.

 

[kartracer24]

wow i've heard it all now. you can't bracket race on ovals for one thing you would have to give slower karts a head start because bracket racing is you trying to run your dial in. another thing is how do you go from starting in the back and pass everyone without breaking out. instead of bracket racing why not run your heats and the slower karts have a b main. how would you start a feature with 10 karts that run 20laps in bracket racing.

 

[BryanA]

I think the term "bracket racing" is being misused in the thread. Having bracket races that are the same as drag racing brackets, would be terrible. But I do like the qualifying and running in the group you qualify for. I know there is sandbagging and what not, but I still think it's fun and IT IS still racing.

another thing is how do you go from starting in the back and pass everyone without breaking out.

If you start in the back and you pass everyone in your group with clean racing and it's obvious that you were that much faster than your group, then you shouldn't have been in that group to begin with. Had you ran the same in qualifying, you wouldn't have been in that group, right? Or am I not understanding what you meant?

When a kart qualifies for group A, for instance, and then when he has his first race with group A, he pulls half a track within the first straightway on the guy that sits on the pole...obviously it will be looked at as sandbagging.

The problem I see and that I have actually had a friend involved with is as follows:

He got in a new kart that a guy had bought and asked him to drive. He goes out for hot laps and the guy had the fuel pump on backwards...didn't make a half a lap. He comes back out for qualifying and his race jacket gets caught up on the clutch, killed his runs. They put him in the back of the slow group because no one had ever seen him race. Well, he comes out in the first race and ends up lapping people. Everyone was hollering sandbagging. So they bump him to the next group. He goes back to the pits and makes A LOT of setup changes. When he goes back out to the next group up, he laps those guys. He then proceeds to get fussed at for sandbagging when I saw with my own eyes what happened.

 

[kartracer24]

BryanA ok then it isn't true bracket racing. so your buddy shouldn't have tried to go faster and thats the problem. who the heck wants to race when you can't make yourself faster. you would have guys barely win to make to look good to. the only way is to have a bmain for slower karts but you didn't win you were just one place behind last.

 

[BryanA]

BryanA ok then it isn't true bracket racing. so your buddy shouldn't have tried to go faster and thats the problem. who the heck wants to race when you can't make yourself faster. you would have guys barely win to make to look good to. the only way is to have a bmain for slower karts but you didn't win you were just one place behind last.

Being that it's not true bracket racing is why he tried to go faster. If it were true bracket racing, then you wouldn't want to go faster or you lose (breakout). When you qualify and get placed in whatever group you qualify for, you can go as fast as you want. That's the point with what we do. You can bring whatever you want out there and race it. If you want a stock out of box motor and run in the slowest group, then you can. If you want a 1500.00 40hp predator and want to race the fastest group, you can. As long as you give an honest qualifying session, you can run it as fast as you want. And i have really yet to see anyone at these races be good enough to sand bag without being noticed. If you are truly competitive, it is too hard to back off the throttle just to make the race look good...or for me it is anyway.When I go out there, I just get too involved in making the kart go as fast as it can under control with the proper lines. Plus everyone pretty much knows what the other karts are capable of.

And we aren't racing for big money either. In my opinion, if you are sandbagging, you're not that good. You are basically just scared to actually run your kart in fear of someone beating you.

 

[W5R]

Isnt the whole point of oval racing, or any kind of racing, to be the fastest one out there? Seems like bracket racing for karts would be one big headache, having to try and slow yourself down to avoid breaking out, or having to try and keep the kart turning the same lap times all day/night instead of trying to make it faster like we do now. The only people i can see actually liking this idea or wanting this type of racing would be the ones who just arent able to be competitive at regular races or racing with everyone else. If thats the case, why not get those people together and ask for a class of your own rather than trying to persuade the karting world to slow down and race with you? There are even beginner classes or some other type of class for people that just want to go out there and have fun at most tracks, like box stock or pure stock instead of AKRA clone, pro clone, UAS, Open, S/A, or whatever other classes run at that track. I could see more people giving up and getting out of racing if things went to bracket racing at all the tracks in the country, simply because we are racers, we dont want to slow down we want to go faster!

 

[BryanA]

Isnt the whole point of oval racing, or any kind of racing, to be the fastest one out there? Seems like bracket racing for karts would be one big headache, having to try and slow yourself down to avoid breaking out, or having to try and keep the kart turning the same lap times all day/night instead of trying to make it faster like we do now. The only people i can see actually liking this idea or wanting this type of racing would be the ones who just arent able to be competitive at regular races or racing with everyone else. If thats the case, why not get those people together and ask for a class of your own rather than trying to persuade the karting world to slow down and race with you? There are even beginner classes or some other type of class for people that just want to go out there and have fun at most tracks, like box stock or pure stock instead of AKRA clone, pro clone, UAS, Open, S/A, or whatever other classes run at that track. I could see more people giving up and getting out of racing if things went to bracket racing at all the tracks in the country, simply because we are racers, we dont want to slow down we want to go faster!

And that's what we do. If you go out and you run your kart as hard as you can with no sandbagging during qualifying, you will be racing in a group where you can try to get faster as the night goes on. Or you better because everyone else in your group will be. The only time you have to worry is if you are sandbagging.

For me personally, I am not talking about bracket racing and breaking out and all that. That is TOTALLY different than what I am talking about. I can say this, there are guys that race with us in our format that would be just fine at any of the regular races. A couple of these guys raced sprints with me and held their own against some of the best guys that came down from PA.

I think too many of the guys debating in this thread are getting things mixed up with drag racing bracket racing. That would be, for instance, saying you are in a group that can't run any faster that a 10 second lap time or else you get bumped up. That's not the case with what I am talking about. Everyone in your group could run a 10 second lap time in qualifying get grouped and by the time you got to the main, half the field in your group picks up a second because of track conditions, adjustments, etc...that's just the way it is. All of these karts will not get bumped or anything and you still have great racing. The only time you get bumped is if you come out in qualifying and you are obviously taking it easy, then you come out for the races and put laps on everyone. From my experience out there, it's pretty easy to determine who is sandbagging.

That's why I say you can put as much money in it and go as fast as you want to go. We have guys racing 2 strokes, 450s, 35hp predators as hard as the track will allow. We also have guys racing clones with nothing but rods and a cam and they get to run them as hard and fast as the track allows. On one end you have the guys that can spend 4000k on their karts and on the other end you have guys that can only spend 1500 on their karts...they all get to race against like karts as hard as they can.


But let me say this...I am not in any shape, form, or fashion trying to say the kart world needs to slow down and adopt this way of racing. I believe the classes that the regular races have are great and it's like every other form of racing, if you want to race on the big stages then you have to pay to play. But I do think that this kind of racing we do is just as fun and just as competitive and is still racing. Once my son gets some seat time and gets used to racing, we will get more involved with the regular races. I have raced everything...cars, dirtbikes, four wheelers, sprints my entire life. Speed and getting faster and faster is what I love. I would never vote for making all of the classes slower.

 

[Freezeman]

Idka

 

[Vintagequest]

add the oval versus road course racing to the dirt versus asphalt to the which came first the chicken or the egg arguements......

Actually, to answer that as far as karting goes........ It was a 2 cycle on asphalt in a parking lot.

 

[Someone ...]

Yep really I think the first post was suggesting the use of "some sort of bracket racing" with in the sport of "sprint" racing which in my example of a method to have a timed starting grid would be a good possibility of achieving what he was thinking about. I also "tried" to explain why that method "wouldn't" work well for dirt oval racing. From there it seems many posters miss understood it and got bent out of shape as if someone was threatening their loved one. LOL
I could go into further detail of how my method is going to be tried out at some sprint tracks in my area yet for now I am just sick of all the insults to our fellow karters that this topic has obtained.

I agree, and now I'm sorry I used the term "bracket" for the class setup we used to use (that I described in post #20). I'm not trying to kill karting - I tried to suggest an alternative that really did work and could be implemented very easily in some form today.

Please allow me to clarify a few things:
Y'all are blowing this sandbagging thing way out of proportion. Racing the way I described in post #20 for six or eight years I can only remember people getting caught sandbagging a couple of times. If you wanted to win any real money you needed to qualify into the top one or two classes, and if you won in a slow class people were happy for you but not as impressed as if you won in one of the fast classes. So the incentive for the most serious racers was to qualify for the fastest class - not sandbag.

Break-out times were adjusted for a reasonable amount of changes expected to the track and by racers adjusting on their karts during the night. There usually was a significant lap time gap between classes too (which was also included) - they didn't just split classes by every ten or fifteen karts. They split classes by looking over everybody's times and noticing the natural gaps. Yes that took time but today can be done very quickly via computer. Often some classes had more karts than others because of time gaps. With these time adjustments and gaps it was pretty obvious who sandbagged because they would run away from the rest of the field. If the whole class picked up that was okay and expected. Break-out times weren't used to slow anybody down - and wouldn't unless you were a sandbagger.

Our old system worked on any type of track. Back then I ran under it at three different dirt ovals, and at two different paved road courses as well. And yes you could call it run-what-you-brung, but it didn't lead to runaway costs. The big spenders are going to spend big anyway, whether it's our old system or today's system.

We didn't use $10,000 timing systems - they had three officials each with a stop watch, and they averaged their three timings to calculate your official lap time. Also, they didn't try to time everybody during a race - they only timed the leader, and often only if he was running away from everybody else. I'm sure people could dream up situations where this could be exploited, but really I was there and it wasn't a big problem.

My suggestions weren't intended to divide racers or hurt karting - quite the opposite, I was hoping to keep people in who are considering quitting because they can't compete the way the classes are set up now. Maybe a track could try a format like this on a different night than their current program... I realize it's a lot of work to operate a race track but maybe try this on the day after your regular program or on what would be an off weekend.

I try not to dismiss any ideas that I haven't personally tried myself first, but if you truly believe this dooms karting then ignore it. But we've got to do something...