Vintagequest
Member
It is still racing. Just another means of accomplishing the thrill.
why isn't bracket racing more popular in Karting?
- Thread starter 71 chevy
- Start date
Barry Hastings
Member
Ok, i think i know what the bigger disagreement here is. its that we are all talking about different forms of racing. I put sprint in there, others do dirt ovals and the others are road race guys. They all 3 are vastly different areas of motorsport. The dirt ovals would be difficult because of changing track conditions, and would be the most challenging to implement some of these ideas. In a lot of ways the ovals have much different problems than Sprint and Enduro racing. I have only done one Enduro race, was fun did it with a shifter... So i cant really comment how this could work there. I do think it would be easiest to do on the big tracks as power output and efficiency does more for lap times than pure skill.
Sprint and 4 cycle sprint is more difficult to implement than the Enduros. At Jacksonville you miss one turn it will effect the straight speed 4 turns later... Reading and commenting here has gotten me thinking more of how to make something like this work... The break out idea did help some. And it makes more sense than trying to slow the fast guys down to stay in the "bracket" when to me that is against the idea of racing itself. Will have to put more thought into it...
Sprint and 4 cycle sprint is more difficult to implement than the Enduros. At Jacksonville you miss one turn it will effect the straight speed 4 turns later... Reading and commenting here has gotten me thinking more of how to make something like this work... The break out idea did help some. And it makes more sense than trying to slow the fast guys down to stay in the "bracket" when to me that is against the idea of racing itself. Will have to put more thought into it...
Vintagequest
Member
Again Barry, no (formal) "bracket". Base it on the most consistent lap times. No one will know who the winner is until its over.
If the track doesn't uas AMB or similar timing methods, utilize a track that does.
PS: Tire treatment will have NO benefit either.
If the track doesn't uas AMB or similar timing methods, utilize a track that does.
PS: Tire treatment will have NO benefit either.
when we (as a family) started racing in colorado back in the 70's, ever car timed....these times were then placed in Fast A, Slow A, Fast B and Slow B....same a bracketing the cars. Then the track set a certain breakout limit (i don't remember the formula or the limit)....if during any race, you broke this limit, you were dq'ed. period.....no moving up to another class. Very rarely did you see anyone break out.
i think that one thing that folks are caught up in with karting is that you have one engine and the track then defined the classes by weight....330, 340, 350, 360...on and on. the only different class that i've seen at some tracks is a heavy and super heavy where the driver has to weigh in at a certain weight. this is all fine. but in a true racing spirit, there should be more of a definitive class. we run three classes. all with a 350 weight rule, but each class has a different motor.
the answer isn't going to be simple because we created our own monster. at first everyone weighed in at say 350....then the lite weight guys said that it's hard for them to compete so they made a 330 class....then the heavies said they couldn't compete and they made a 375 class....then everyone started weighing in at 375 and racing in EVERY class....claiming that it's all about racing as much as possible for the money they paid.
a track i know said they had over 100 entries for racing on any given saturday.....what wasn't said was that they had 15 karts racing in almost all the classes, totalling over 100 entries.....
my thoughts are that more definitive rules are needed, not for the engine....but for classes or brackets or whatever you want to call them. am i advocating a change? not really. just a more accurate and definitive way for everyone to race within a set rules package so that you will give everyone a chance to say that they won....it hurts the sport and the track when the same three win consistently week after week in every class....and don't hit me in the head with "they have there package together and others don't"....it's a lame excuse for deep pockets and track favorites....or cheating that isn't being looked at or teched right.
No, I'm not saying everyone is cheating or even that it goes on....but if your going to try bracket racing with karts or keeping what you have, then you need to explore ways to bring more folks to the stands and to the pits....and ways to make the racing exciting....
i think that one thing that folks are caught up in with karting is that you have one engine and the track then defined the classes by weight....330, 340, 350, 360...on and on. the only different class that i've seen at some tracks is a heavy and super heavy where the driver has to weigh in at a certain weight. this is all fine. but in a true racing spirit, there should be more of a definitive class. we run three classes. all with a 350 weight rule, but each class has a different motor.
the answer isn't going to be simple because we created our own monster. at first everyone weighed in at say 350....then the lite weight guys said that it's hard for them to compete so they made a 330 class....then the heavies said they couldn't compete and they made a 375 class....then everyone started weighing in at 375 and racing in EVERY class....claiming that it's all about racing as much as possible for the money they paid.
a track i know said they had over 100 entries for racing on any given saturday.....what wasn't said was that they had 15 karts racing in almost all the classes, totalling over 100 entries.....
my thoughts are that more definitive rules are needed, not for the engine....but for classes or brackets or whatever you want to call them. am i advocating a change? not really. just a more accurate and definitive way for everyone to race within a set rules package so that you will give everyone a chance to say that they won....it hurts the sport and the track when the same three win consistently week after week in every class....and don't hit me in the head with "they have there package together and others don't"....it's a lame excuse for deep pockets and track favorites....or cheating that isn't being looked at or teched right.
No, I'm not saying everyone is cheating or even that it goes on....but if your going to try bracket racing with karts or keeping what you have, then you need to explore ways to bring more folks to the stands and to the pits....and ways to make the racing exciting....
How do you get that tire treatment would have no benefit? On dirt, it has alot of benefit no matter what type of racing format you are using
Vintagequest
Member
Not necessarily. When it is based on "consistent" lap times while you are on the track, it relys more on the driver's capabilities while on the track. There are those who could be just as consistent with tires out of the wrapper as those with gooped-up ones. You might be faster with treated tires than I'd be without them BUT if I can be more consistent on say a Briggs and untreated tires than you are with a twin engine kart and treated tires....... tire treatment really doesn't matter.
to prep or not to prep, that is the question.....another case of "we built our own monster"....trying to take prep out of the game now would only increase it's use. but how do you control prepping? or for that matter, how would you outlaw it? you really and honestly can't. it's gotten to be so much of the game that drivers can't drive a kart without it...no sense in arguing that they can, when in fact, you have too many shouting tires, tires, tires...and me saying that tires are only one part of the total package....but what do i know?
Freezeman
Site Supporter
I see and understand how most of the dirt oval racers on here reject the idea of bracket racing. I mainly race larger sprint tracks and can review mine and all other racers, practice, qualifying,heat, main event and elapse times because the tracks I race at utilized Mylaps scoring systems. Heck we even have live timing and scoring on our cell phones now.
I have 7 years worth results records and I would have to search pretty deep to find where one of my races had a red flag restart of a race. My example earlier of how I think bracket racing could work does not include any DQ's for going too fast, teching of any motors,fuel, tires,wheels or weight. It does include a way to have a very competitive way of seeing if a persons driving skills has what it takes to be consistent at avoiding racing errors. It would be a blast to see a slow clone leaving the starting grid 5 minutes before an old open shifter in a 20 lap race and have it come down to side by side racing at the checkers. OK that's probably a wet dream because we don't have a class for either a clone racer or an open shifter racer that wants to race their kart around here. As far as my area for sprint kart racing combined with a class of bracket racing would have several benefits for the new karter or old karter and the tracks that want them.
As far as Bracket racing for dirt oval. From what I have seen the only consistency them races seem to have is yellow restarts. It would be a drag and impossible to properly line up a bunch of misfits over and over again. This is feeling like a Paul K post to me so I'll end it here with, right or wrong I spared you from having to read all my thoughts about this.
Humm. Bob should put a "Post Slow Reply" to click on.
I have 7 years worth results records and I would have to search pretty deep to find where one of my races had a red flag restart of a race. My example earlier of how I think bracket racing could work does not include any DQ's for going too fast, teching of any motors,fuel, tires,wheels or weight. It does include a way to have a very competitive way of seeing if a persons driving skills has what it takes to be consistent at avoiding racing errors. It would be a blast to see a slow clone leaving the starting grid 5 minutes before an old open shifter in a 20 lap race and have it come down to side by side racing at the checkers. OK that's probably a wet dream because we don't have a class for either a clone racer or an open shifter racer that wants to race their kart around here. As far as my area for sprint kart racing combined with a class of bracket racing would have several benefits for the new karter or old karter and the tracks that want them.
As far as Bracket racing for dirt oval. From what I have seen the only consistency them races seem to have is yellow restarts. It would be a drag and impossible to properly line up a bunch of misfits over and over again. This is feeling like a Paul K post to me so I'll end it here with, right or wrong I spared you from having to read all my thoughts about this.
Humm. Bob should put a "Post Slow Reply" to click on.
ABR #69
Member
Ps. If anyone read my post before this edit, I quoted Mikey's post on accident.Not necessarily. When it is based on "consistent" lap times while you are on the track, it relys more on the driver's capabilities while on the track. There are those who could be just as consistent with tires out of the wrapper as those with gooped-up ones. You might be faster with treated tires than I'd be without them BUT if I can be more consistent on say a Briggs and untreated tires than you are with a twin engine kart and treated tires....... tire treatment really doesn't matter.
Prep has actually made tires more consistent if worked properly. So that is purely speculation on your part.
Prepping tires makes then fire earlier in the race, making your faster sooner allowing you to push the kart harder sooner. When prepped and worked correctly allows you to usually get faster as the race goes well into 200 laps on the same set. Now that takes a lot of knowledge and preparations. Prep also allows tires to refire better after yellow flags or red. Ever hear that Pinks once cooled down are terrible to get them to refire? One caution can make that happen. When worked properly they will refire, and get you back up to your consistent speed faster than a non-prepped set of the same tires.
If you think on dirt you could compete even remotely in the same bracket as prepped tires without prepping you'd be two brackets slower than the kids. On dirt this just won't work, sprint and everything go have fun with your non-competitive competition of following each other. Don't pass though, might get DQed....
Vintagequest
Member
Again, you are complicating a simple format. The word CONSISTENCY has been a difficult concept to comprehend on this thread. AGAIN, who'd give a rat's behind if I'm slower. You say "Two brackets slower than my kids". What I've continually been trying to get through to y'all who don't understand, there are NO brackets. NO (this) et to (that) et, another et to another et, faster bracket, slower bracket........JUST PLAIN CONSISTENCY!!!!!! Sheesh. IF what I'm saying can sink in to those more destined to argue, you'll understand what I'm saying about treatment being no benefit. You wanna use it, fine. But those who don't like it may just have a more consistent driving style that'll beat you with it.
BTW, those who continually pound us with your opinion that it diesn't work, it does. Roebling Road in Savannah has proven it. In fact, it was done at Sandy Hook in Maryland back in the '60's. So yeah, it DOES work.
Sorry about my rant if it seems offensive but those who understand what I'm saying have to be getting as good a laugh as I am about those who REFUSE to even try to comprehend......LOL.
XXX#40
2A supporter
Then fine you right hand turners run how you want, im pretty sure the dirt oval world wants no part of it
I know i want no part of bracket racing, it just doesnt belong on dirt ovals IMO. Dirt oval racing has history, that has gone back many many years using pretty much the same basic format, why change what isnt broke?
im not saying its the be all end all but i still think your sentiments are not well thought out. karting is obviously in decline so something is not working. the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
no, this is not dividing karting. Im coming at this from a sprint perspective as that is what i race, and every class at my tracks has about 4-5 drivers and the gap between first and last is seconds per lap. brackets will increase participation by allowing CLOSE racing in an open format- it could bring new blood into the sport, and bring back people who have walked away from the sport.
stock classes? thats humorous. whats stock about "box stock"? you bring a stock engine to a box stock class you are dead in the water. it would have been better to stay at home. that is not as affordable as you are trying to make it out to be, and it definitely does not promote close racing.
what would promote close racing is a bracket where one is a second off the pace and all he has to do is add a cam or headers and be on pace. this would be more fun and competitive for the drivers involved, would lead to bigger , closer races, and would improve audience count.
all IMO, and from a sprint asphalt perspective, of course.
Barry Hastings
Member
In speaking of Sprint racing.
The stock classes, while not "stock" are still better than a run what you brung class, in the name of fairness. At my local track they had a Stock appearing type class, people building stroker flatheads big pistons big valves. The guys would Rocket down the straight, brake very early and kinda tiptoe around the rest of the track and if they lost the thing they pointed to was the engine, they needed more horsepower. I needed a friend of mine to test a cam in a kart that i couldnt fit in. didnt bring my gears to put the engine in the rev range i wanted so had to show my friend how to drive the track to get the engine in the RPM range i needed. When he went back racing with his stock appearing kart and really went to winning with MUCH less hp than the other guys, because he drove faster... That class died out from everybody building bigger and faster engines to try and beat him, they gave up class died.
Vintagequest, you speaking more about Enduro racing? I can see how that would be fun there... almost wouldnt want to even draft because that would change the laptime a good bit...
There isnt any easy answer. Wish there was. The difficult part is to find something to please everybody...
The stock classes, while not "stock" are still better than a run what you brung class, in the name of fairness. At my local track they had a Stock appearing type class, people building stroker flatheads big pistons big valves. The guys would Rocket down the straight, brake very early and kinda tiptoe around the rest of the track and if they lost the thing they pointed to was the engine, they needed more horsepower. I needed a friend of mine to test a cam in a kart that i couldnt fit in. didnt bring my gears to put the engine in the rev range i wanted so had to show my friend how to drive the track to get the engine in the RPM range i needed. When he went back racing with his stock appearing kart and really went to winning with MUCH less hp than the other guys, because he drove faster... That class died out from everybody building bigger and faster engines to try and beat him, they gave up class died.
Vintagequest, you speaking more about Enduro racing? I can see how that would be fun there... almost wouldnt want to even draft because that would change the laptime a good bit...
There isnt any easy answer. Wish there was. The difficult part is to find something to please everybody...
add the oval versus road course racing to the dirt versus asphalt to the which came first the chicken or the egg arguements.....
never said that prepping wasn't a good thing, nor a bad thing. some rely on prepping to compensate for poor (not bad) driving skills. sure it gets the tires to fire faster from the start....seen it forst hand and a friend showed me what i was missing by loaning me a set for the paved track and i jumped from eighth to second in half a lap...yes, i know what prepping does. what i really advocate against is all the home made crap that no one seems to reallize that it's a death sentence over prolonged exposure. that and the fact that they CONSISTENTLY yell tires, tires, tires.....and try to justify a sour engine with "my tires wasn't right" or a bad handling kart with "my tires gave up on me".....
you can't win a race solely on tires or motor or setup. it all has to come together to get you to the front. sure tires will fire faster and get you to the front quicker if done right, this is a no brainer and i understand. but you can't blame tire prep for your poor driving skills. this is where i disagree with most on....some drivers can't handle the faster speeds regardless of what they say. i've seen drivers who act like a bull in a china shop...running all over everyone they can just to get to the front. that's not racing folks....that's being stupid....
back to the original post....i think bracket or timed racing on a road course would probably be a good thing....for them. Me? i'll stick to the go fast, turn left crowd...
never said that prepping wasn't a good thing, nor a bad thing. some rely on prepping to compensate for poor (not bad) driving skills. sure it gets the tires to fire faster from the start....seen it forst hand and a friend showed me what i was missing by loaning me a set for the paved track and i jumped from eighth to second in half a lap...yes, i know what prepping does. what i really advocate against is all the home made crap that no one seems to reallize that it's a death sentence over prolonged exposure. that and the fact that they CONSISTENTLY yell tires, tires, tires.....and try to justify a sour engine with "my tires wasn't right" or a bad handling kart with "my tires gave up on me".....
you can't win a race solely on tires or motor or setup. it all has to come together to get you to the front. sure tires will fire faster and get you to the front quicker if done right, this is a no brainer and i understand. but you can't blame tire prep for your poor driving skills. this is where i disagree with most on....some drivers can't handle the faster speeds regardless of what they say. i've seen drivers who act like a bull in a china shop...running all over everyone they can just to get to the front. that's not racing folks....that's being stupid....
back to the original post....i think bracket or timed racing on a road course would probably be a good thing....for them. Me? i'll stick to the go fast, turn left crowd...
XXX#40
2A supporter
The majority of racers are not making home brews, they understand that you will waste more money experimenting than buying into and learning 1 prep line.
2 top drivers, 2 equal karts and engine, only one wins, and thats the one that get's the right shoes on
M.D.racing
New member
Alright; everybody goes out and makes 3 laps. We look at everybodies times,
hand out the trophies/money, and go home.
Oh the memories..........
hand out the trophies/money, and go home.
Oh the memories..........