Oh so why do we want to do this when we have an engine package thats dependable and pretty cheap already? Is it so we can have more engine builders in the mix and modifying the engine rules to get more even playing field because the pro gas is lagging behind keep changing and changing $$$$ and put all the small dollar guys out. Heres what you do buy an animal put a cam in it change over to alky jets set the valve train opening to max. put in a WF rod throw a key in if you think its needed couple other no dollar tricks and your running a dependable all year long engine. Now if you think that real fast guys are doing something other than that they probaly are on there chassis. Colburn,Stroik,Evans,Vehrings,Kuhley,Tedder would be fast in a grocery kart lol. So why are we doing this?? Just so everyone knows I been running stocker for 6 years rarely miss a race and run LM from the start I'm only fast when the above guys stay home or on occasion break. There is no way you add to this class with this change when theres no good reason. #1 To add kart count would be a good reason let run LC option and make them earn the spot we all did it for LM. #2 Make it more cost effective you can't make it that because it already is as cheap as it is. Everyone should remember the flat head days I think there kind of like the clones of today build and blow lol and wasn't cheaper by far whats it costing to build the $99 engine?
2015 WKA Road Race Classes
- Thread starter Gene Davis
- Start date
Lol gary tell me how many enduro races have you run and secondly tell what you have to do to pg and how $$ it wil save? stock animal on alky when she starts leaking oil out the crank seal hone, rings, piston, rod and that's after two years of running maybe on a sprint track its different as I hear its almost dead in gold cup. Reliability is not the issue sorry been running rr to long to beleive that. If its so we can get clone guys to run animal without having to switch tanks it least that's logical. Maybe if all the talkers started racing I'd listen.
Bob Vehring
New member
Sorry Gary But I can't buy that yet. First PG is relatively new and for the most part, only Steve is really pitting any volume out. Steve and I have talked privately. I understand that he is very much behind this program and actively promoting it, it is his baby. Nothing wrong with that
Far to early to make any statements on this. First thing to understand is All Animal engines come off the same assembly line, The ones with the closest tolerances, become LO206's.The rest Animals. You can build to any spec's off either line by cutting the seals. In either PG or BP Animal you have to install a aftermarket cam, you have to go through and set up the carb, you have to cut the head, you have to do valves and seats. The only real difference between the two is on PG you are not allowed to true up the bore and go to a .010 piston. At first thought, maybe sounds simple but I guarantee after 28 years of building these, if were building one for my kids or a customer that wants to go that far, if I have to by rule, I will search through blocks until I find the perfect one to fit a std piston. A straight, round bore is essential to a good engine.That's precisely why it IS done with BP Animal.
Now look at fuel, I admit we have not built a single PG engine simply because no one has asked, But we have plenty of experience with gas engines, we pretty much dominated in the F200 days, those were all gas, and we are the largest suppliers of racing engines in both US and Canada for 120 sleds. These can be either stock, or open Animals, or 4 different brands of 120 sled engines, both stock and very modified. Every one of those classes must run on gas.
Their are two major differences between gas and alky as a fuel. Gas is pretty dirty as a fuel, it produces carbon from the additives in it and it runs very hot. Alky produces very little if any carbon on its own, small amount might come depending on oil choice and it runs very cold, which is why we don't run it in sleds, starting is hard below 0. Alky will take 100 deg or more out of the head temp. The problem with carbon and the temps is, it builds up on the piston top and head, it then flakes off and gets between the rings and wall and the valves and seats. They will need to be serviced more often then a engine running alky. Don't take my word for it, use a leak down tester.
One last thing to remember if you want to compare sprint to RR'ing. My kids have done sprint since 8 and RR since 12. They are not the same thing at all, Daytona, Road America, Charlotte, some of these tracks you are flat out, wide open for sometimes 3 to 4 miles. Engines used on a sprint track never see those conditions. Its not the same thing at all. We see all these engines karts or sleds, gas or alky, every day.
PG is really no different then any other engine other then Steve is cutting you a break right now, once others get involved, it will be the same as BP animal when all the builders start doing their traicks. Remember, Cloans were never going to be more then a buck fity
Far to early to make any statements on this. First thing to understand is All Animal engines come off the same assembly line, The ones with the closest tolerances, become LO206's.The rest Animals. You can build to any spec's off either line by cutting the seals. In either PG or BP Animal you have to install a aftermarket cam, you have to go through and set up the carb, you have to cut the head, you have to do valves and seats. The only real difference between the two is on PG you are not allowed to true up the bore and go to a .010 piston. At first thought, maybe sounds simple but I guarantee after 28 years of building these, if were building one for my kids or a customer that wants to go that far, if I have to by rule, I will search through blocks until I find the perfect one to fit a std piston. A straight, round bore is essential to a good engine.That's precisely why it IS done with BP Animal.
Now look at fuel, I admit we have not built a single PG engine simply because no one has asked, But we have plenty of experience with gas engines, we pretty much dominated in the F200 days, those were all gas, and we are the largest suppliers of racing engines in both US and Canada for 120 sleds. These can be either stock, or open Animals, or 4 different brands of 120 sled engines, both stock and very modified. Every one of those classes must run on gas.
Their are two major differences between gas and alky as a fuel. Gas is pretty dirty as a fuel, it produces carbon from the additives in it and it runs very hot. Alky produces very little if any carbon on its own, small amount might come depending on oil choice and it runs very cold, which is why we don't run it in sleds, starting is hard below 0. Alky will take 100 deg or more out of the head temp. The problem with carbon and the temps is, it builds up on the piston top and head, it then flakes off and gets between the rings and wall and the valves and seats. They will need to be serviced more often then a engine running alky. Don't take my word for it, use a leak down tester.
One last thing to remember if you want to compare sprint to RR'ing. My kids have done sprint since 8 and RR since 12. They are not the same thing at all, Daytona, Road America, Charlotte, some of these tracks you are flat out, wide open for sometimes 3 to 4 miles. Engines used on a sprint track never see those conditions. Its not the same thing at all. We see all these engines karts or sleds, gas or alky, every day.
PG is really no different then any other engine other then Steve is cutting you a break right now, once others get involved, it will be the same as BP animal when all the builders start doing their traicks. Remember, Cloans were never going to be more then a buck fity
steve baker
Moderator
In case anyone was wondering, below is a cost break down on our Animal Pro Gas engine. We can build this engine from start to finish in 3 hrs at a rate of $90.00 per hour. We believe our selling price is fair at $895.00 and at a labor rate of $90.00 per hour will maintain enough profit to keep us in business. We have no plans to increase our selling price as long as our suppliers do not increase their cost to us. In comparison it takes us 7 to 8 hrs to build a top of the line Alky engine. Most of this time is spent with the additional labor for boring cylinder, fitting camshaft proper and all the carb modifications for the alky. Also we spend a lot of additional time on the dyno adjusting and tuning the Alky carb for correct air/fuel ratio curve.
Owe yea one more thing for the clone guys, we can build the Animal Pro Gas engine in less time than it takes us to build a box stock clone per the current AKRA / WKA rules!
Steve
www.Bakerracingengines.com
Item Part # Our cost
Animal engine 1224432 8003-01= $442.30
Briggs Billet rod 557117= $56.36
Dyno Camshaft WKA Pro Gas= $58.00
Head gasket Cometic= $11.54
Valve springs AN 002= $6.00
Head heat disperser 555690= $11.46
Fuel pump 808656= $9.88
Carb linkage kit Coyote Bullet= $12.00
Fuel lines 15 inches= $3.00
Carb linkage cable AP 4070= $3.00
Engine stickers BRE= $4.00
Valve cover breather kit APS= $5.00
Aluminum pulse fitting APS= $5.00
Total parts cost = $627.54
Labor - complete build & dyno test 3 hrs @ $90.00 / hr= $270.00
Total cost to customer = $897.54
Owe yea one more thing for the clone guys, we can build the Animal Pro Gas engine in less time than it takes us to build a box stock clone per the current AKRA / WKA rules!
Steve
www.Bakerracingengines.com
Item Part # Our cost
Animal engine 1224432 8003-01= $442.30
Briggs Billet rod 557117= $56.36
Dyno Camshaft WKA Pro Gas= $58.00
Head gasket Cometic= $11.54
Valve springs AN 002= $6.00
Head heat disperser 555690= $11.46
Fuel pump 808656= $9.88
Carb linkage kit Coyote Bullet= $12.00
Fuel lines 15 inches= $3.00
Carb linkage cable AP 4070= $3.00
Engine stickers BRE= $4.00
Valve cover breather kit APS= $5.00
Aluminum pulse fitting APS= $5.00
Total parts cost = $627.54
Labor - complete build & dyno test 3 hrs @ $90.00 / hr= $270.00
Total cost to customer = $897.54
I have not experience with enduro racing. I only race sprint and have no desire to race enduro. Just sharing my thoughts on the pro gas package. This is what I know. My engine builder supplies my engines to me so cost is not a factor for me. I also have no affiliation with any organization or company. I am only interested in attracting more racers to whatever series they choose. But back to my point. My engine builder felt it was necessary to rebuild my alky engine after every race. Not all parts were necessarily replaced but it was fully disassembled every race and maintenance was done. My pro gas engine was ran 3 weekends for a total of 8 full days. It was disassembled for tech 7 times completely and no parts were replaced other than the head gasket once. There was no drop off in performance. if anything, it kept getting faster. I know Bob does not agree that the alky engines need rebuilt nearly this often, but i know my builder isn't doing it to make money since I don't pay him. Many other people I know that race sprint nationals also have their engines rebuilt frequently as well to maintain performance.
In regards to prices going up eventually I don't really see it happening to the extent of other engines. The rules are so tight in regards to carburetor and cam their isn't that much time dedicated to building the engine. Similar to Steve Baker noted, my personal engine was built in a few hours. Basically just head work. All the creative carb work and custom cam grinding is out the window including worrying about valve lash. I really view it as being very similar to the 206 package with how tight the rules are. Personally, I couldn't be more satisfied with the package and I hope you guys are open minded and you have the same great experience with it at some point that I have. Hopefully, I get a chance to stop over at Daytona and see how things are going.
In regards to prices going up eventually I don't really see it happening to the extent of other engines. The rules are so tight in regards to carburetor and cam their isn't that much time dedicated to building the engine. Similar to Steve Baker noted, my personal engine was built in a few hours. Basically just head work. All the creative carb work and custom cam grinding is out the window including worrying about valve lash. I really view it as being very similar to the 206 package with how tight the rules are. Personally, I couldn't be more satisfied with the package and I hope you guys are open minded and you have the same great experience with it at some point that I have. Hopefully, I get a chance to stop over at Daytona and see how things are going.
Bob Vehring
New member
Gary, as said earlier other then the fact were now up to 14 different 4 cy class choices to enter, I have no problem at all with PRO gas but if your going to add some, take some others out, simple as that, what I like is big classes. If its PG, lets race.
My problem here, and the only reason I'm involved is, it seems clear that A, this wasn't brought in using the same set of standards other engines have to follow to get an engine class started. And, B, its clear that here in these posts you have the engine builder himself, a member of WKA comp comm. and dam near every racer, asking for an explanation, and we can't get a answer from the leaders of the Nat. body supposedly we own. That just doesn't say much for the respect we should get as their customers, or the future of RR'ing.
My problem here, and the only reason I'm involved is, it seems clear that A, this wasn't brought in using the same set of standards other engines have to follow to get an engine class started. And, B, its clear that here in these posts you have the engine builder himself, a member of WKA comp comm. and dam near every racer, asking for an explanation, and we can't get a answer from the leaders of the Nat. body supposedly we own. That just doesn't say much for the respect we should get as their customers, or the future of RR'ing.
Bob Vehring
New member
Steve, where can I get a set of rules to compare the the cam degree profile and carb rules so I can compare ?
steve baker
Moderator
You should be receiving your 2014 WKA tech manual soon,i received mine on 12/7/13. So look for # 705 Animal Pro Gas spec on page #39. The Animal Pro Gas spec engine may not be the fix all save all but it certainly is a step in right direction to save racers money and is more attractive to new racers looking at getting into the 4 cycle style racing. Thank you to WKA for being futuristic thinking in what makes sense going forward.
Steve
Steve and Gary,
At least were hearing the intent. Steve only time I've seen your name around a RR track is on Kilsdonk's kart but I may be wrong. I think if the plan is to bring new guys into our group that's great the more the merrier. I to like big groups of racing more of a chance for me to pick up someone my speed to draft and in RR drafting is a priority. Ok that said it does sound like a competitive $ for the starter but wasn't the 206 suppose to do that? I don't even think I seen a 206 on the track lately. Now the next thing nothing against you guys trying to get this going but like I said in a post earlier I've been running RR for 6years and I have not seen either one of you at a track we run that I'm aware of. I suggest you go around and get enough support to have the class run a year on probation and also run times on them compared to alky and at the end of the year look at numbers and times and get a consenses from racers for an even playing field if they run with alky or run them as a class of there own. We did it with LM and I know LM struggles for #'s at some tracks because I run it and I'm always trying to get other guys to run it even offering an engine to run on occasion. Steve since your an engine builder promoting this can you answer the 206 issue? And you said earlier you would like to race PG in RR I think no better way to get a class going than the men behind it race it. I for one would run this if you guys do! Look we already have 3 guys that'll run it lol Put your money where your mouth is.
Denny Smith
At least were hearing the intent. Steve only time I've seen your name around a RR track is on Kilsdonk's kart but I may be wrong. I think if the plan is to bring new guys into our group that's great the more the merrier. I to like big groups of racing more of a chance for me to pick up someone my speed to draft and in RR drafting is a priority. Ok that said it does sound like a competitive $ for the starter but wasn't the 206 suppose to do that? I don't even think I seen a 206 on the track lately. Now the next thing nothing against you guys trying to get this going but like I said in a post earlier I've been running RR for 6years and I have not seen either one of you at a track we run that I'm aware of. I suggest you go around and get enough support to have the class run a year on probation and also run times on them compared to alky and at the end of the year look at numbers and times and get a consenses from racers for an even playing field if they run with alky or run them as a class of there own. We did it with LM and I know LM struggles for #'s at some tracks because I run it and I'm always trying to get other guys to run it even offering an engine to run on occasion. Steve since your an engine builder promoting this can you answer the 206 issue? And you said earlier you would like to race PG in RR I think no better way to get a class going than the men behind it race it. I for one would run this if you guys do! Look we already have 3 guys that'll run it lol Put your money where your mouth is.
Denny Smith
Bob Vehring
New member
Steve, I'm not currently a member, until things like this get straightened out, don't see that happening. I don't know anyone up here thats a member, where else can I get them
Bob, Scott called me yesterday and told me he has the 2014 WKA Tech Manual, got it Monday. I will give him a call and figure how we can get the #705 Pro Gas Section it copied and sent to you.
Dave.
Bob Vehring
New member
Daveo, I actuality have the cam spec's, someone from here sent them, I just haven't gotton time yet to sit down and compare them to Alky Animal. I do not have the wording on carb tech, would like to compare that also. Better drive over to Deanns house, she took a beating Fri night up here, wish I could post pix
Jamie Webb
New member
Here are the differences I see:
-PG you can not alter the sheet metal around the head and must run the black B&S flywheel cover #555255.
-PG kart side panel can NOT be closer than 3" to side of shroud (haven't got clear answer on this yet if less clearance will be allowed for RR).
-PG has to run RLV header #5511 (have had 2 people tell me the 5511 will not work on a flat mount, no word yet if another header will be allowed).
-Bob, if you haven't seen the WKA carb rules lately, might want to take a look. "Basically" the PG & Animal are the same, other than all parts must be stock in PG (main jet can be reamed to any size).
-PG camshaft has approx 20 degrees more duration than the WKA Animal cam if I'm reading the numbers right.
-PG must also maintain a MINIMUM of .003" lash AFTER the race, checked cold in tech (no word on how long after the race they will wait to perform this check).
-Head gasket rules are worded a little different, but appear to be the same rule by the dimensions. Steve has said he is using a metal layered gasket, I do not see how this is legal reading the rules. In the 704 and 705 section, it says B&S Gaskets or aftermarket of "stock design". I don't see how a metal layered gasket conforms to this rule. In the 705 section it says "or WKA approved" but there is no mention of what the other gaskets are (if any).
-Valve spring rules are the same.
-Head rules, exactly the same.
-PG only Champion 7, 9, or 12 plug. No other plug allowed.
-PG stock bore only.
-PG has minimum length of oil ring expander.
That's pretty much it.
-PG you can not alter the sheet metal around the head and must run the black B&S flywheel cover #555255.
-PG kart side panel can NOT be closer than 3" to side of shroud (haven't got clear answer on this yet if less clearance will be allowed for RR).
-PG has to run RLV header #5511 (have had 2 people tell me the 5511 will not work on a flat mount, no word yet if another header will be allowed).
-Bob, if you haven't seen the WKA carb rules lately, might want to take a look. "Basically" the PG & Animal are the same, other than all parts must be stock in PG (main jet can be reamed to any size).
-PG camshaft has approx 20 degrees more duration than the WKA Animal cam if I'm reading the numbers right.
-PG must also maintain a MINIMUM of .003" lash AFTER the race, checked cold in tech (no word on how long after the race they will wait to perform this check).
-Head gasket rules are worded a little different, but appear to be the same rule by the dimensions. Steve has said he is using a metal layered gasket, I do not see how this is legal reading the rules. In the 704 and 705 section, it says B&S Gaskets or aftermarket of "stock design". I don't see how a metal layered gasket conforms to this rule. In the 705 section it says "or WKA approved" but there is no mention of what the other gaskets are (if any).
-Valve spring rules are the same.
-Head rules, exactly the same.
-PG only Champion 7, 9, or 12 plug. No other plug allowed.
-PG stock bore only.
-PG has minimum length of oil ring expander.
That's pretty much it.