what kind of engine is best is almost as popular question as what kind of oil is best...there is no right or wrong answer because it's all up to what is being used around where you race and what you can afford. period. either a clone or a lo206, doesn't matter....you have to have the capital in your pocket to do either...nothing is going to get solved with this line of arguement. cost versus cost is what this breaks down to. everyone has gotten away from the topic of "affordable racing league"...it's not affordable if you can't monitor and tech to keep everyone on the same page. and it doesn't matter what engine.
---ARL--- (Affordable Racing League)
- Thread starter Dallas Mini Speedway
- Start date
paulkish
old fart
No matter what ends up being the engine to race, before racing it's going to need $300+ in parts and labor.
Put the $300+ into what ever has the lowest initial cost.
You can get one bull(sales) reason after another to raise the initial cost, but the end result after adding in $300+ is the same.
Put the $300+ into what ever has the lowest initial cost.
You can get one bull(sales) reason after another to raise the initial cost, but the end result after adding in $300+ is the same.
racing promotor
Moderator
Very good point, however the original poster does not have all the answers or he would not have posted, The discussion comes into play with the Affordability to make the ultimate proper Decision.
sCREamnClones
New member
I guess time will tell whether or not there IS an "Affordable Racing League"! Maybe the 'ARL' should just have 'Clones AND 206's' and race each other for bragging rights. Good Luck
If you want a racing league that is affordable start with the tires. Thats is where all the money gets spent. We have switched from karting to lighting sprints cause of that reason. We can spend 1500 on a stock motor and buy 4 new tires and run two to three years on the motor and 20 some races on the tires and only replace one tire at 150 a tire compared to 5 to 6 sets to run 20 races at 75 a tire then spend the same 1500 on the kart motor and then have to get it freshened after the 20 race at 3-400 to freshened. We enjoyed karting but buying tires got old real fast.
outlawing prep would cut tire expenses by half...because folks wouldn't be buying and prepping numerous sets of tires for different tracks and different track conditions. they would have to settle with what they have and deal with it...but you'll never get them to do that..."it would ruin everything!!"...maybe then they will stop with the tires, tires, tires bit and really learn how to handle a kart....an hour on changing the oil and making sure the valves are set and 4 days on prepping tires...it's rediculous and i don't buy into "tires, tires, tires wins races and that's all you need"....wrong answer tater salad.....i'd love to see one track, one time outlaw prep on tires and to check every tire before the race grid leaves to get on the track...for one race and see who really can drive or who relies on tire prep to make up for poor driving skills....
and outlawing prep means inside and outside!! one time......absolutely no prep.....and a wonder who will complain that they can't handle the kart or it "won't stick"......
and outlawing prep means inside and outside!! one time......absolutely no prep.....and a wonder who will complain that they can't handle the kart or it "won't stick"......
racing promotor
Moderator
Pull up a Chair and get the pop corn lol!!
sCREamnClones
New member
hey mikey.... California's version of the 'EPA' could come back there and 'help' w/ that!
racer47
New member
But Mikey56 ...... you run on asphalt ....I don't think tires are that big of a difference on that stuff. But I bet if they outlawed prep on asphalt ... people would be spending their money on new tires then.
Just my $0.02
Just curious, or maybe im missing your joke if there was one....But how are narrow tires supposed to make the driver of the kart actually drive more? To me thats just another example of someone wanting to add new rules that are completely unneccesary, which is what got us in this situation we are in, in the first place!
The answer is simple, and has been stated over and over in this thread by many people....Pick a good set of rules (2014 AKRA rules look great for this) and make them permanent for a given period of time, with no updates, changes or deletions. This would level the cost out a little and help bring new karters into the sport. I know if i were to be just getting into racing and looking to find out what engine to run, i would be terrified of racing a clone engine on a budget because of the constant changing of the rules and updates that come out every couple of months. I started racing back in April 2013, and do you know how many times i have had to update my clone engine? 3 times, once for a rebuild/update to some new parts(best of the best stuff you have to have to be competetive) that had came out, and the other 2 times were once when rule updates came out around mid-year, and again just recently for the 2014 rules. It would have saved me about $300-500 (labor costs money too!) or more if i could have just used the same engine all year without changing a thing.
It comes down to what the racers want right? Judging by this thread, it appears that the racers want a good set of rules chosen and for those rules to be frozen or made permanent for a set period of time! We dont need people trying to push us clone racers over to the LO206 like many keep suggesting, we need to organize the rules for the engine we already have instead of abandoning the engine alltogether and just giving up and buying a briggs.
Now, as mikey56 would say, "ill step off my soapbox" and let the other racers speak thier minds lol
Sorry mikey but i have to agree with bob on that one, taking away the prep would just cause anyone who wants to be competitive to have to buy more sets of tires than they would have had to buy with using prep. Why you ask? Because after running tires so much with no prep, they get harder and harder, to the point where they cant be used on some tracks, so they would be useless to them. It is cheaper to have prep and fewer sets of tires needed and to be able to prep the tires for track conditions to help with the way the kart handles. No matter how you want to slice it, you really do need tires tires tires if you want to be competitive no matter where you race or what type of track you race at, because most of your speed in kart racing is in the tires. The wrong tires/prep can put you strait to the back of the field, while the right tires/prep can take you strait to the front, considering you have the chassis right and a decent motor on the kart also. Outlawing prep wont solve the problems at hand or make things more affordable really, the same top drivers that are winning races now would be winning them then also. I have not ever seen any driver who consistently runs in the top 5 who does not know how to make changes to his chassis to adjust for track conditions or track changes, if anything every driver who runs in the top 5 knows how to set up a chassis just as well as they know tires. Running in the front consistently requires more skills than just knowing how to drive a kart and be consistent, i would say at least 80% of the top drivers are also tire experts and skilled at setting up a chassis, the ones who arent have paid help from experts in the field they lack knowledge in. That is why you see some teams at the big races who have one or 2 people doing tires, one or 2 doing chassis, and the driver just standing there with their sunglasses on and looking in the mirror or standing there with a smug look on their face because they know they can drive a kart. I find that the nicer guys and the ones who are more willing to help are the ones who know their tires and chassis as well as they know how to drive a kart.
This whole topic is getting completely off topic. We should be talking about how we can make racing more affordable for everyone and how to keep bringing fresh blood and new racers into the sport. And the key to that question, is affordability. If prospective racers see they cant afford to get into racing karts, they are going to look elsewhere for something to do rather than race karts. People want to be able to at least compete when they are racing, no matter what form of racing your in. I know we are supposed to be having fun out there but lets face it, nobody really enjoys losing, no matter how you look at it. If we can find a way to allow new racers to at least be able to get into karting and be competitive in the class they want to race, we would get a whole lot more karts on the tracks and new people in those karts. We need 4 things mainly: a cheap affordable engine package that allows racers to get started for $400 or less (more likely around 200-300), a bulletproof and permanent set of rules for that engine, a rookie/amatuer class specifically for those new racers, and affordable/cheap karts for them to get started with. Permanent rules for engine tech can be done, look at the flathead, the rules for these engines have been in place and litteraly unchanged since, what 2005-2006? What would help is to also give them some type of reward to look forward to when they compete and win, such as trophy's, used/new sets of tires, things they can use like that.
xtreameracer
New member
How about having a set tire or brand and only allow one prep from a brand anyone can get. if want to allow inside prep have a set prep for that too. That way everyone is on a even playing field. It worked when i raced r/c touring cars just fine.
the prep comment was made as a by product of what was being discussed. i'm not so sure that prep is a good or bad thing. yes, i race on asphalt....but that doesn't mean that i won't race on dirt! truth be told, it's not that prepping is bad...it's what is going into the different brands of prep that i don't like. if your out front, you not as exposed to it as the rest of the field is. vapors, minute droplets....this is what i'm really against. don't get me wrong....i'm not saying that all is wrong...it's jsut that some of the stuff being used is harmful to all of us! and yet some one here advocate using cancer causing substances, extremely volitile and out right dangerous stuff and when i race, i'm being exposed to this crap. and it gets old to have a discussion on here and someone will inverably start in on the "tires, tires, tires" and how if you have a crap set-up and a crap motor just ues "XX" (fill in with thier favorite brand of prep) and you're going to be in the winners circle every time!! to those that believe in this....the easter bunny says that he's not going to leave you any eggs and the tooth fairy ran out of change....
i'm not for or against USING prep in some form. I believe that in some circumstances, it might have a good use. but what i'm dead set against is all the backyard crap because no thought is being put into what is used and mixed. there is no regulation on the ingredients so EVERY racer that uses it or is exposed to it, is
playing with thier health. playing with this stuff without adequate protection for yourself and everyone around you can lead to devistating health issues........
and don't limit the tire brand...we have an open tire rule and i love it! i mix and match based on what myu kart does in the turns and how it generally handles...
i'm not for or against USING prep in some form. I believe that in some circumstances, it might have a good use. but what i'm dead set against is all the backyard crap because no thought is being put into what is used and mixed. there is no regulation on the ingredients so EVERY racer that uses it or is exposed to it, is
playing with thier health. playing with this stuff without adequate protection for yourself and everyone around you can lead to devistating health issues........
and don't limit the tire brand...we have an open tire rule and i love it! i mix and match based on what myu kart does in the turns and how it generally handles...
Fortunately your full sized car experience cannot be compared to the karters experience in regards to the claimer rule.
Your experience is a good example of why, in big car racing, the claimer rule is dead.
Karting, of course, with it's 35 lb engine, and single cylinder, can be brought up to max performance (if stock legal) in a matter of minutes.
mikeincoppell
New member
This thread sounds like wanting to wind the clock back to affordable and reliable clone motors and I don't see why it can't be done. For sure clones are out of control. A friend of mine had a pro built clone that cost over $800. It ran great and made lots of power but unknown to him there was a hairline crack in the side cover. During a race this crack grew to the point of allowing oil to leak out and before the race was over the motor ran dry and seized the rod onto the crank. You can't blame the builder, it was a defective part from the factory that only magnafluxing would have detected when new. $300 later he had the motor running again.
If you truly want an AFL this is how to do it. First, get 3-6 reputable engine builders together to write a specification. The goals would be:
Standardize on a known base engine.
Make it safe (aluminum flywheel, etc)
Set a reliability goal of XX hours of race time before requiring a rebuild.
Limit the RPM by restricting the breathing, NOT with VALVE SPRINGS! Go ahead and overkill on the springs to eliminate maintenance.
Set a cost of a finished motor less clutch and dyno tuned. I'm thinking around $350
The panel of engine builders agree on which parts to use, the HP to be obtained, sell cost, etc. These builders are the first to be certified to build and sell the AFL motors. After 12 months other builders can apply to build and sell AFL motors.
Finished motors are sealed on the dyno and the end user must break the seal(s) to remove anything other than the oil fill/drain plugs, spark plug, and air cleaner.
If you want affordable, reliable, and consistent engines this is how you do it. Once you let the genie out of the bottle by letting everyone and their dog into the motor you've lost control and can never regain it no matter how many rules you write.
I know this won't work on clone motors because clones are special. But it works on dozens of motors in other series including ROTAX in karting.
Just my thoughts, I'll go away now.
If you truly want an AFL this is how to do it. First, get 3-6 reputable engine builders together to write a specification. The goals would be:
Standardize on a known base engine.
Make it safe (aluminum flywheel, etc)
Set a reliability goal of XX hours of race time before requiring a rebuild.
Limit the RPM by restricting the breathing, NOT with VALVE SPRINGS! Go ahead and overkill on the springs to eliminate maintenance.
Set a cost of a finished motor less clutch and dyno tuned. I'm thinking around $350
The panel of engine builders agree on which parts to use, the HP to be obtained, sell cost, etc. These builders are the first to be certified to build and sell the AFL motors. After 12 months other builders can apply to build and sell AFL motors.
Finished motors are sealed on the dyno and the end user must break the seal(s) to remove anything other than the oil fill/drain plugs, spark plug, and air cleaner.
If you want affordable, reliable, and consistent engines this is how you do it. Once you let the genie out of the bottle by letting everyone and their dog into the motor you've lost control and can never regain it no matter how many rules you write.
I know this won't work on clone motors because clones are special. But it works on dozens of motors in other series including ROTAX in karting.
Just my thoughts, I'll go away now.
The Closer
Member
paul monroe
New member
The cost is always going to be there. Tech is best way to go. I guess the tire prep cost I'm missing cause I don't use a lot of it. One small bottle of it I think I did better without it. I could pass clean without hitting folks. I would be a little lose off but that's where I need to get better. If folks would work on driving and not the other crap it would cut cost. Another way to help out is less classes. Box stock then clone they are the same it seems just have one. Cut the weights not 350,375 and 400 go with just two 365 and 390 anything under 365 run kids only.
mikeincoppell
New member
$575 still isn't bad for a race motor. Hell, when I was building street rods I had steering wheels that cost more than that so my perspective may be skewed some. LOL I came up with the $350 number as that's what I paid for a couple of BSP clone motors with ARC flywheels ready to run less clutch, air cleaner, exhaust, and top plate. So the fundamental base motor. OK, so add some cost for dyno time and sealing it up and you're up to $400-450. Still a damn good price for a ready to run race motor of any kind. If you're building/tuning to a set and easily achievable HP number you're not spending hours and hours getting the best parts to try and achieve the last .001 HP which is where all the cost really is. That's what has to be eliminated to make an AFL. You can't blame the builders, they're just delivering what us customers are asking for and are willing to pay. But the law of diminishing returns will always drive the costs up and up.
Bye for now