Track Tac

Harbor Freight 212 Ghost

ABR #69 said:
But, the Clone has changed significantly since then. Like when they were running them with Flatties and Animals and put the restrictors in the Animals. I'd say they're on a much more level playing field now. I'd say just put all the OHV's in of the same CI. People are leaning towards methanol for Clones anyway, and I'm sure there are more things that will change before too much longer. So it'll be much the same as an Animal. Already costs just as much, which was the reasoning for getting away from the Animal, or so they all claimed. I mean, Ford, Chevy, and Dodge have run engines against each other for years. Why can't we do the same in Karting?
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if you go to open engine it will end up one engine. we allow NKA and AKRA engines down here. Take a guess how many NKA engines you see? people will gravitate to whatever has an advantage. I can see people like tillotson and dynocams constantly making small changes to gain an edge and you will be shelling out for a new motor chasing the flavor of the month.
 
I mean, Ford, Chevy, and Dodge have run engines against each other for years. Why can't we do the same in Karting?
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It has been done time and time again. Two strokes have done it for decades. Four stroke have done it off and on but because of the complexity of parts and lack of builders, some brands die off and others are favored mainly due to over all cost to run.
Remember the F200 class? It was set up as a "controlled stock" idea. Resurrect it and allow a float / slide type carb like the PZ22 and have fun! Set some rules for critical parts to gain parity power wise. But, you will see one engine type rise to the top in certain areas. A lot of monkey see, monkey do. Some people can build engines, some will buy engines it's just a fact of life.
 
just checked the SPG predator vs clone is less than 1/2 second off the pace at cross anchor. what will this motors do when they're built? I smell the 196 clones days as being numbered. lee holt memorial the predators were faster lol
 
laser3kw said:
It has been done time and time again. Two strokes have done it for decades. Four stroke have done it off and on but because of the complexity of parts and lack of builders, some brands die off and others are favored mainly due to over all cost to run.
Remember the F200 class? It was set up as a "controlled stock" idea. Resurrect it and allow a float / slide type carb like the PZ22 and have fun! Set some rules for critical parts to gain parity power wise. But, you will see one engine type rise to the top in certain areas. A lot of monkey see, monkey do. Some people can build engines, some will buy engines it's just a fact of life.
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in all my years of DIRT karting I have never seen a mix bag of engines on the same track where there was a mix of engines crossing the finish line it has always been one engine in the top spots and others in last place. even with a weight penalty as in limited animals vs limited flatheads the animals dominate and the flatheads are there just for the fun of being on the track never seen a battle between the two for first EVER.
 
J'-remy said:
in all my years of DIRT karting I have never seen a mix bag of engines on the same track where there was a mix of engines crossing the finish line it has always been one engine in the top spots and others in last place. even with a weight penalty as in limited animals vs limited flatheads the animals dominate and the flatheads are there just for the fun of being on the track never seen a battle between the two for first EVER.
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Got 3 letters for you.....U......A.......S
 
ECkarter said:
The percentage is irrelevant. What is… is the plethora of engines included in the rules package.
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if you want to race open clsss no engine rules then your all set. go run UAS or RWYB. Why are you on this thread complaining you can't race an open engine class?
 
J'-remy said:
if you want to race open clsss no engine rules then your all set. go run UAS or RWYB. Why are you on this thread complaining you can't race an open engine class?
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You’re lost again…

No none has made that complaint, though it seems you have grievances you’d like to air.

Someone stated mixing engines in one class doesn’t work… A man offered an instance where it works…

As mentioned 2cycle sprint has mixed engines for years. No problem. Central PA has several tracks that combine the various 4cycle engines with spec plates and weights. It works there as well.

The whining in karting is unbelievable.
 
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I don't get it? yes it works for a very small percentage of karting. if you think a clone is expensive feel free to price out a 250 super kart engine or a Honda KTM, Suzuki Yamaha 250/ 450. multiply that by all the things needed to get it to work on a kart that was designed to use a little single with a pull starter and an outboard clutch . the idea here is to have ONE PLATFORM. I have no idea if you were around for the flathead days and the WKA but the kart counts were way higher and it was extremely convent to have one rule set. people who want to run any engine there is a class just for you but what about the rest of us who are tired of the lessons never learned?
 
You're losing sight of what I said, all those similar OHV engines under one rule set is what I said. There is no reason it can't be done. That would RAISE kart counts in the sense it keeps the fractional kart counts in a few classes instead of 45 different classes. No reason it can't work. It's been done in many series, from cars to about anything powered with an engine.
 
It was done in F200 successfully until the rules makers who seemed to have reason to promote the Yamaha above the other engines killed the class.

Multi engine classes work, have worked, and will work again if those at the top have pure motives. UAS has survived despite those involved in rule making from time to time (including myself when I was kuas director) tried to slip a rule or 2 in that would provide a slight advantage to a perticular engine package. In the end those making the rules would call each other out and laughter would insue.

Clones will probably never be under 1 rule set because there is money to be made. This is a sad state of affairs having been involved in a class/organization that understood/understands a concept that is a waste of effort to try to explain
 
Something bugs me about this ghost thing. Can anybody confirm it is real? Doesn't seem that a company like HF would be interested in this. I admit I know nothing about Chinese knock offs but that "PZ 22" has a bowl on it that looks like a type I haven't seen on a new engine in 20 years. "Performance kit"? Really? I suspect this whole thing is a joke. Time will tell, I guess.
 
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Chipg56 said:
Something bugs me about this ghost thing. Can anybody confirm it is real? Doesn't seem that a company like HF would be interested in this. I admit I know nothing about Chinese knock offs but that "PZ 22" has a bowl on it that looks like a type I haven't seen on a new engine in 20 years. "Performance kit"? Really? I suspect this whole thing is a joke. Time will tell, I guess.
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I get the same feeling, but would reputable companies like EC carbs really get involved if there was even a slight chance it's fake? I know what you're saying, but remember Briggs & Stratton did it in the past, so it's been done before.

If you read EC's blog post you'll see Mark brings up some good points, this could be very advantageous for Harbor Freight if executed correctly.

Also ask yourself who do you think the actual customer for these industrial small engines is... it's not people re-powering their log splitters, it's the kart racers and mini-bikers. So it does make some sense that Harbor Freight is actually recognizing their core customer, and attempting to provide an engine that is better suited for these applications, at least karting for now.

That's just my take on it.
 
J'-remy said:
if you go to open engine it will end up one engine. we allow NKA and AKRA engines down here. Take a guess how many NKA engines you see? people will gravitate to whatever has an advantage. I can see people like tillotson and dynocams constantly making small changes to gain an edge and you will be shelling out for a new motor chasing the flavor of the month.
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This is just like the Ford vs Chevy in racing. 90% of them are Chevy in most cars. But, a Ford and Dodge are just as fast in the right hands. They all have their downsides, that's racing.

Chasing the flavor of the month... You're doing that already, don't kid yourself. If it wins on Sat/Sunday it sells on Monday.

I do agree with wrecit, it all starts from the top. Guessing this is why I'll stick with the UAS
 
Landon Engine Building said:
I get the same feeling, but would reputable companies like EC carbs really get involved if there was even a slight chance it's fake? I know what you're saying, but remember Briggs & Stratton did it in the past, so it's been done before.

If you read EC's blog post you'll see Mark brings up some good points, this could be very advantageous for Harbor Freight if executed correctly.

Also ask yourself who do you think the actual customer for these industrial small engines is... it's not people re-powering their log splitters, it's the kart racers and mini-bikers. So it does make some sense that Harbor Freight is actually recognizing their core customer, and attempting to provide an engine that is better suited for these applications, at least karting for now.

That's just my take on it.
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I agree. I have three of these motors you don't see people with a broken power washers buying multiple of these motors you also don't see companies like ARC Dyno cams, Go Powersports etc. etc. that cater to other harbor freight products. Harbor freight recognizes all the karts and mini bikes out there that are buying these engines it is nothing for them to tell ducar to just send them over it in that configuration and they will put it in the stores. I remember when i first got one the lady was complaining that she couldn't sell any 212 other than the Hemi. lol
 
Landon Engine Building said:
I get the same feeling, but would reputable companies like EC carbs really get involved if there was even a slight chance it's fake? I know what you're saying, but remember Briggs & Stratton did it in the past, so it's been done before.

If you read EC's blog post you'll see Mark brings up some good points, this could be very advantageous for Harbor Freight if executed correctly.

Also ask yourself who do you think the actual customer for these industrial small engines is... it's not people re-powering their log splitters, it's the kart racers and mini-bikers. So it does make some sense that Harbor Freight is actually recognizing their core customer, and attempting to provide an engine that is better suited for these applications, at least karting for now.

That's just my take on it.
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Thanks for letting me know about the EC blog. https://www.eccarburetors.com/harbor-freight-ghost-212-help-karting
 
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UAS is pretty convoluted as far as I'm concerned. 500cc that's it no weight rule. As for the rest of karting, stock, super stock and mod no weight rules.
 
This isn't manby panby little league baseball, football, basketball, soccer. Everybody doesn't win and or get a trophy. Sorry for the rant.
 
Ksfastman said:
UAS is pretty convoluted as far as I'm concerned. 500cc that's it no weight rule. As for the rest of karting, stock, super stock and mod no weight rules.
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I'm not sure what you mean honestly, you're saying no weight rules for all classes? It doesn't do exactly what it's intended to do for oval racing, but it does have an effect. But, almost every single form of racing has weight rules, why would we not have weight rules?
 
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