With This Fuel & Oil Additive problem continuing to get more out of hand, Makes me Wonder Why ?

[rebsfan4]

Yeah, like back before folks tried to change karting from a fun hobby to a professional sport.

Well since we don't have time machines now days.....those of us who have been around for 30+ years, and can actually remember those days you speak of, have to learn to adapt. The only other option is get out. If if bothers some that much (and it seems to more and more), maybe those people should find something else to occupy their time. It isn't going back to the way it used to be.

 

[Steve Vermeer]

Pump around systems have worked well in the past with a few provisions.Karts must be brought to the fueling area with NO fuel in the tanks.Plastic tanks only that can be seen through and verified as dry.Karts' fueled and sent to the grid with driver and one support person under the watchful eye of the gridmaster until released onto the track.No system is %100,but you have to make an effort followed with post-race inspections.Use the best equipment you can afford and pay attention to who's doing what during the day.If you find someone cheating,give them the boot,owners' kid,big money team,whomever.For every cheater you send packing you will get new people coming in to run at a place that has rules and enforces them!I've spent enough of my own money and time chasing tire prep/fuel additives while at WKA and I can say that the only equipment thats going to be anywhere close to %100 will be a portable mass spectrometer and they're out of reach for most of us in karting $$$$.Back to, do the best you can with what you have and what you can afford.Common sense goes further than money in most cases..

 

[DynoDon]

Here is a thought. Let's say the tester is 800 bucks. Purchase it. Add a 2 dollar fee to the entry of each kart. Fee is only assessed until the 800 bucks is paid back. I do not think there would be an honest karter that would complain if he knew a track was taking steps to make sure he was treated fairly. Along with that, have fuel on hand at the track from the local gas station that is recommended to everyone to purchase from. Let them know this is only a temporary thing and once the program is settled in, the track will no longer be providing fuel. ( always keep a little on hand just in case a new guy shows up and doesn't know the rule ) After all, even if it goes bad, the track will still be able to use it at the track for some kind of maintenance.) Make sure they know to run the fuel in their hauler for a $1.00 or so until the previous purchaser's fuel is out of the hose in case they bought High test. Now lets say the tracks only have 50 kart fields. That's 100 bucks paid back towards the tester. in 8 weeks the tester is paid for and the entry fee goes down. Tracks must let the karters know just what the "expectations" are for that track concerning fuel. That is not just a statement on the web site but every night it is announced over the pa system or the drivers meeting that fuel will be tested at the end of the event in one class or another. They do not need to know what class. Now tracks are going to have the karter who wants the track to test their fuel to see if it passes. OR, they want the track to test it to see if it can be brought up to track spec or lowered to the correct spec. Tracks allow one ( 1 ) test per team. Do not tell them what the numbers are that way they can't go back and try to boost it based on what you are allowing. Just tell them it is legal or not. How do you control the (1) test per team? I won't tell ya right now because there will be those who come on here and shoot a hole in MY theory. However, I have always been a believer in " if you want to catch someone you become a good, fair hunter" Track personnel may be a busy people for a few weeks until your "expectations" have been met by the racers. After all, Tracks are the one who has taken the step to provide a fair program for the karter that the track took money from. Then it will settle down to where tracks will only have a few who want fuel tested. If it is the same people week in and week out the track may want to start the hunt!!!! AKRA, WKA, IKF, NKA are all in the same situation. They are all relying on the Digitron tester to keep it fair due to the fact that it is the best thing going right now. If there was another method, they would make sure that tracks and tech were aware of it. With that being said, It is up to the tech and the tracks to do some foot work towards keeping it fair for the "fair" karter. Like captnimo ask, what is the additives that is getting by the tester? No one has identified anything yet. If it is identified, they can do their own testing to see if it is true and they will find a way to combat it. They certainly do not want to sell an item of that nature that is a failure. If anyone has a sure finding that passes the new Digitron, Contact them and let them know. So in summary, If a track truly wants their "expectations" known there is going to be a little work and cost involved until a sure fired way comes along to do it better. JMO

 

[Pavehawk]

I'm a Track owner that created the post and YES I got problems with alky, I also Attend EVERY other event around here and YES they got problems with alky infact that's about all we run,
You must just be a clone hater I guess.

Im not a clone hater but I don't like the fuel we run in it. To me it would seem less hassle to test one type of fuel. Cheaters are going to cheat atleast this way you could focus all your CSI work on one. I like being able to get my fuel at the track and not worry if I used a hose that was contaminated or that my can had some left over in it. Hope you find your answer.

 

[paulkish]

The devices I am referring to that are used by EPA you would not be able to purchase. They are using devices that run in the six figures.

Get the EPA to occasionally come around with their six figure equipment and test fuel in fuel tanks. Let the EPA handle the penalty imposed on the driver and car owner using non standard fuel.

 

[captnimo]

NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS YET SAID EXACTLY WHAT ADDITIVE WILL PASS THE NEW dt64 TESTER. Anyone can make a statement but lets see some names of these tested....tell us what the meter was calibrated with, tell us what readings the instrument reads in air, tell us what reading the instrument read on the fuel before additives and then tell us what the reading was on dc 1 and 2 after the additive. Some of the web pages of those selling these additives state their additives will pass most current test being conducted because the instruments are not being used as recommended by us in the field especially in 4 cycle racing. Complaining about the cost of the instrument is just an excuse, it will last for years, you only need one to do tech and most the people do more than one track, but even if each track had their own and only run 10 races a year that's $70 per race for one year. If track runs 2 years its $35 a race for those two years.

People and many kart shops don't want you to use this instrument and its not because it doesn't work....

 

[DynoDon]

Im not a clone hater but I don't like the fuel we run in it. To me it would seem less hassle to test one type of fuel. Cheaters are going to cheat atleast this way you could focus all your CSI work on one. I like being able to get my fuel at the track and not worry if I used a hose that was contaminated or that my can had some left over in it. Hope you find your answer.

Now that you are aware of the possibility of a contaminated hose or a contaminated can and you choose to participate, it is no different than staying on top of your game no matter what fuel you are using.

 

[LOUMAR]

NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS YET SAID EXACTLY WHAT ADDITIVE WILL PASS THE NEW dt64 TESTER.

An old fellow once told me." MADE BY MAN CAN BE CHEATED BY MAN" I have found this to be very true in the last 60+yrs that I have been in many forms of racing.

 

[DynoDon]

NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS YET SAID EXACTLY WHAT ADDITIVE WILL PASS THE NEW dt64 TESTER. Anyone can make a statement but lets see some names of these tested....tell us what the meter was calibrated with, tell us what readings the instrument reads in air, tell us what reading the instrument read on the fuel before additives and then tell us what the reading was on dc 1 and 2 after the additive. Some of the web pages of those selling these additives state their additives will pass most current test being conducted because the instruments are not being used as recommended by us in the field especially in 4 cycle racing. Complaining about the cost of the instrument is just an excuse, it will last for years, you only need one to do tech and most the people do more than one track, but even if each track had their own and only run 10 races a year that's $70 per race for one year. If track runs 2 years its $35 a race for those two years.

People and many kart shops don't want you to use this instrument and its not because it doesn't work....

Isn't it the FT-64?

 

[captnimo]

Yes and no, the new series of instruments are called the DT 64's then you add a FT Bus to it and its then called a Ft 64 fuel tester...one of these days those who purchase a DT64 can buy different bus's for karting needs and also purchase a FTBus and use their instrument for testing fuel...we are just not there yet, but close. We are selling some DT64's for karting needs with multiple connections on the back for what ever needs they have ,such as lap timing, tach, various temps etc.,but soon the instruments will only have the one connector on the back and it will go to whatever buss you buy. The buses will be stackable so if you only buy a bus for tach ,temp and lap times but later want pressures and more temps or pressures you can add different busses to existing ones and still use same instrument. I hope this is not too confusing...

 

[DynoDon]

You have 2 pm"s

 

[borgerspr]

Get the EPA to occasionally come around with their six figure equipment and test fuel in fuel tanks. Let the EPA handle the penalty imposed on the driver and car owner using non standard fuel.

Paul, now you are opening a hugh can of worms. Once the EPA gets involved that will be the end. They will set standards that no track can meet and declare tracks toxic waste sites. It has happened in Northeast Penna. It is not only the tracks but where the particulates travel via air and water to the surrounding properties. That is why I am saying we have to keep this from happening. With budget cuts funding is low so now it isn't a priority but let someone get a bug up their ass and start pushing it then watch out.

Before I went digital I had a custom photo lab. I had to have a chemist friend make up MSDS Materials Safety Data Sheets of every chemical I had in my lab plus residue emitted from the film and paper during the process. The main concern was heavy metals, silver in particular. This was a federal and state law and I am sure these prep and additive comoanies must do the same thing. Ask them to see the MSDS and see what is really in the stuff.

 

[ESTG]

so you knew the answer to #46 before you asked it

Yes and no, the new series of instruments are called the DT 64's then you add a FT Bus to it and its then called a Ft 64 fuel tester...one of these days those who purchase a DT64 can buy different bus's for karting needs and also purchase a FTBus and use their instrument for testing fuel...we are just not there yet, but close. We are selling some DT64's for karting needs with multiple connections on the back for what ever needs they have ,such as lap timing, tach, various temps etc.,but soon the instruments will only have the one connector on the back and it will go to whatever buss you buy. The buses will be stackable so if you only buy a bus for tach ,temp and lap times but later want pressures and more temps or pressures you can add different busses to existing ones and still use same instrument. I hope this is not too confusing...

 

[sCREamnClones]

I think it's because it's become more difficult, WKA always recommended a water test for alky, which will catch a lot of additives, for gas it was more difficult and the digitron fuel meter was used calibrated with cyclohexane, that test was not totally sufficient, and could be fooled somewhat. The only surefire way would be to send a sample off to a lab for testing and because of the expense and lag time that's not a viable solution either, maybe the lab test is the only real solution , let the racers know it will happen , take a sample of the winner's fuel and a month later or whenever the results come back if it's found illegal ban them from the track for life.

"Precisely"! That solves the problem from the 'racers' viewpoint, however....it the creates a 'pocket-book' hit too the 'tracks'! Who do you think is 'more' important?

 

[sCREamnClones]

Guy's this thread is way off topic for most, I have NO problem with that I always digest what EVERYONE has to say, However all the Idea's are not SURE Proof, my point is these Rule Bodies want to take the lead with parts specs ( which is fine ) WHY do they AVOID this issue when it's WAY more out of hand than cheating parts, That's the biggest reason WHY is my main point, Jerry just mentioned the Sterofoam cup deal trust me there is a SIMPLE Inexspensive why just like the drops of bleach in fuel with any Nitro in to catch all the different stuff, it might be add grape kool aid to one and always reacts a certain way that shows proof, So why are these Rule Bodies NOT playing chemist like us Owner / Operators are forced to do and figure this thing out.
To my Knowledge there's about 8 different products being used say with Help from others behind the scenes we've figured out 3 of them, If we got some HELP we could soon have them all covered, all it takes is the Product and TIME.

I DO think you know why the Ruling Bodies...arn't doing 'enough'! Do you wanta ask the State of California if you can borrow some of there EPA technology/people?

 

[racing promotor]

Ken,

You ask for people's opinions. Just because he believes gas is a waste of time, you shouldn't start labeling him in that manner. From what I'm seeing through your responses to those opinions; no one has an answer that you don't refute. Of the two fuels, Methanol has a more consistant moleculor base from which to start. Yes they both have their issues but, gas has a much less constant base from manufacturer to manufacturer. That in itself, is the start to the inconsistant reading problems with testing, outside of sending to a lab. So with my opinion stated.....what is the correct answer you are looking for? It's almost as if you already have something going on in your mind and you are looking for someone to state something similar to see if anyone else is thinking along the same lines. Not trying to be a butt here but, no one seems to be able to answer you in a fashion you are earger to accept. That's what leads me to believe you ALREADY have your own thoughts.

Bryan your not getting it Either, we use MORE ALKY that's not the Issue, The Answer I'm looking for is real Simple SURE PROOF way of detecting these additives, and was just curious WHY the Rules Bodies are NOT putting more effort into it.

 

[racing promotor]

I DO think you know why the Ruling Bodies...arn't doing 'enough'! Do you wanta ask the State of California if you can borrow some of there EPA technology/people?

Apperantly Not That's WHY I'm asking, So your saying it's ONLY because of the added Liability that goes with it.

 

[Dover Power]

We do not endorse nor sell or use this in fuel..Yes we were given some and we did test it..
Heres the link on it.. They were never a thought it would ever be used in Gasoline.. But I assure you it boosted HP.. It seems to act like an expander whe under head which creates more combustion strength..

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/dioxane.html

I'm not here to prove you wrong.. BUT I want to ask you a good question..
OK Lets say the tech comes up with a certain number on the tester for that day.. They usually allow a plus or minus..
If racer A comes in within those numbers is he considered legal ? I assume it should be YES...
OK racer B also comes within the numbers,, his fuel might be a shade different on tint or smell.. Is he legal too?


I still asked a question.. Do ? anyone else?


Remember the racer has the same exact tester to use to his advantage.. He can kill the original gas and bring i back to life better than it was..

One person that comes to mind that frequints 4cycle can attest to the accursey of my statements..

Simple pump around and problem solve..

 

[paulkish]

Here's what's really crummy about it for low budget racers. We run alcohol and get a good price per gallon on it. Being low budget on everything, paying through the nose for hot fuel isn't going to make enough hp difference, to make up for all the other low budget things we use to race. What that means is jacking up the price of fuel via pump around, making you buy x amount of fuel off the track to race, or what ever, ain't going to mean squat to those who already have the ability to pay for top notch everything. But it will put racing beyond the ability of some, if not many. Everything is relevant. We get decent payout just to make a show and the cost of the fuel is relevant to payout. So, though we may use more fuel it doesn't get into our back pocket, any more then a gallon or two gets into the back pockets of a karter. Jacking up the cost of a couple of gallons of fuel or jacking up the cost to get in to race because of fuel, can and does keep people from racing, like it or not. Sure you can say if you can't afford it, then so what you have no business racing to begin with. But beat up on the little guy too bad and you not only no longer have someone to race with, you no longer have a place to race.

edit: I don't like the EPA idea I had either. Butt ... ya know car or kart, if they do come and check fuel, us low budget racers are going to come out clean. It's the high dollar big boys that will have a problem. And if you even have an inkling I'm speaking the truth, it's the big dollar players who are putting it too the rest. But ... ain't that the way of the world ?

 

[rebsfan4]

Bryan your not getting it Either, we use MORE ALKY that's not the Issue, The Answer I'm looking for is real Simple SURE PROOF way of detecting these additives, and was just curious WHY the Rules Bodies are NOT putting more effort into it.

Because they DO NOT need to be involved with telling ALL tracks what prescribed method they should use for checking fuel OR what specific tool they should have to use. That IS the responsibility of the tracks themselves. It's the responsibility of the tracks also to make sure the tech official is profeciant at using whatever method of testing they choose. That's a liability they (Rules Committees) should not be burdened with. I get it quite well. Your wanting the rules committees to spends countless amounts of money on A LOT of testing. Your asking for something that quite frankly I don't feel anyone has the right to. Your wanting them to expend their money for your benefit. And if they did spend all the money on testing (And it will cost money), who will be expected to help them recoop their costs. And you can exspect them to want a return on that sort of investment.