Track Tac

With This Fuel & Oil Additive problem continuing to get more out of hand, Makes me Wonder Why ?

it's not limited to gas or oil...too many home brew chemists out there are concocting crap without regard to the consequences. all in the name of gaining an advantage....and the stuff they are using is either very toxic and known to cause cancer, extremely volitile or in some cases outright deadly. but they continue to mix it all up, sometimes using it with thier kids playing right next to them and they slap this crap on thier tires or pouring it in the oil or gas. is their a solution? no....because there is no control over the prep industry or fuel/oil additives that may have a commercial use, but shouldn't be allowed in racing. can it be controlled? i seriously doubt it....if you try to outlaw prepping (at least at the track), you'll get those racers that can't do without it and raise cain with the promoters and how they will quit if they aren't allowed. then you have the additives in the fuel...sure it gives you a boost, but it showers the racers behind you with the crap coming out of your exhaust and you don't care!! be it absorbed through the skin, breathed in, vapor, mist, droplets....whatever....there is no controls on prepping tires, there are no controls to prevent gas or oil contamination (any time you add something to the gas or oil, you are contaminating it), there are no sure fire ways to test for it that is easily used without an expense to the track or an added expense to the racer to cover the tracks purchase of the equipment.

like i've said before....what one man develops to prevent cheating, another is working jsut as hard to get around it. i still say that i'd really like to see what would happen if you had one race where everyone was on the same fuel and oil and absolutely no prepping of the tires....none, nada, zero zilch, nothing....not at home or at the track....i'd love to see what some of the racers would do when they are confronted with a slide thru turn three and four when they haven't got anything to help them stick to the track......or have that extra boost in the fuel...

ok off the soap box now...
 
mikey56 said:
it's not limited to gas or oil...too many home brew chemists out there are concocting crap without regard to the consequences. all in the name of gaining an advantage....and the stuff they are using is either very toxic and known to cause cancer, extremely volitile or in some cases outright deadly. but they continue to mix it all up, sometimes using it with thier kids playing right next to them and they slap this crap on thier tires or pouring it in the oil or gas. is their a solution? no....because there is no control over the prep industry or fuel/oil additives that may have a commercial use, but shouldn't be allowed in racing. can it be controlled? i seriously doubt it....if you try to outlaw prepping (at least at the track), you'll get those racers that can't do without it and raise cain with the promoters and how they will quit if they aren't allowed. then you have the additives in the fuel...sure it gives you a boost, but it showers the racers behind you with the crap coming out of your exhaust and you don't care!! be it absorbed through the skin, breathed in, vapor, mist, droplets....whatever....there is no controls on prepping tires, there are no controls to prevent gas or oil contamination (any time you add something to the gas or oil, you are contaminating it), there are no sure fire ways to test for it that is easily used without an expense to the track or an added expense to the racer to cover the tracks purchase of the equipment.

like i've said before....what one man develops to prevent cheating, another is working jsut as hard to get around it. i still say that i'd really like to see what would happen if you had one race where everyone was on the same fuel and oil and absolutely no prepping of the tires....none, nada, zero zilch, nothing....not at home or at the track....i'd love to see what some of the racers would do when they are confronted with a slide thru turn three and four when they haven't got anything to help them stick to the track......or have that extra boost in the fuel...

ok off the soap box now...
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One way you would stand a chance of controlling it, get all tracks to stick together and if you get caught with these chemicals your Banned, No Questions ask If all Tracks stick together and they race No where you'll have to toss a few but it won't take long they'll get the hint.
 
jack burroughs said:
These things have been going on since kart racing was all 2-strokes and rear engines, why would anyone expect it to change.?
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The realists don't. Fuel additives I understand. The prep deal......well that's just people who don't know what they are doing with prep and looking for an excuse to complain about not running well. In reality they will still be getting outrun if there wasn't prep.
 
I should of clarified better I did not mean Tire Prep, ( At least they are labled ) I meant these highly Toxic Chems being put in Fuel and oil. just because It's been going on forever does not mean we should just set back and overlook it now, I'll be making EVERY EFFORT Possible to stop it around here, I'm tired of busting my butt putting in all the time it takes to do this right and give back to the racers, and find out were giving a lot of it to out right cheaters, and worse yet putting EVERYONES Health at RISK.
 
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racing promoter....i applaud your efforts and agree 100 percent with you. my point iin bringing up the prepping is that it goes on with all of it....fuel, oil and tire prep. some of these chemical wizards we have out there are playing with fire and sooner or later, they will suffer for it...and the part that i REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hate is that i'm breathing this or getting this on me every lap....but they don't care as long as they don't get caught or worse "it's not in the rules so it's legal"....

didn't mean to hijack your thread, jsut pointing out that it's going on not only with the fuel and oil but with prep too....
 
mikey56 said:
racing promoter....i applaud your efforts and agree 100 percent with you. my point iin bringing up the prepping is that it goes on with all of it....fuel, oil and tire prep. some of these chemical wizards we have out there are playing with fire and sooner or later, they will suffer for it...and the part that i REALLY, REALLY, REALLY hate is that i'm breathing this or getting this on me every lap....but they don't care as long as they don't get caught or worse "it's not in the rules so it's legal"....

didn't mean to hijack your thread, jsut pointing out that it's going on not only with the fuel and oil but with prep too....
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I understand 100% why you would mention the Prep thing here No problem, and your correct with what you say I would love to stop it as well However that will be a much higher mountain to climb, We'll start with these oil and fuel additives and go from there.

Wish us Luck !! and include us in prayer that we don't blow ourselves up lol!!
 
Pump around like we used to do at the Tri State some years ago when we ran on methanol worked pretty good to me. You can still have some cheating but it makes it harder.
 
Most pump arounds we have been thru you are required to come to the station with a full fuel tank. The tank is then pumped dry with one hose then refilled with another hose from the other end of the barrel. If somebody comes thru with hot fuel he gives it to everybody. Theres no sure fire way of testing the fuel unless your willing to pay for it. don't look for the sanctioning bodys to tell you how to test or what to use unless your willing to comply with their rules at any cost. Like Dover said the pump around is the best way to make it even for everybody.
Merry Christmas!!!
 
Pump around done properly work to a certain degree, the ones that pump out of the karters tank back into the main tank are the worse of any, and contaminate everyone else's fuel. Those who are running hot fuel are jetted for it and the others are not. Pump arounds are not cheap and I'm not sure I would even want to do it with gasoline its too volatile. I won't list the way that some teams have told me how they get around the pump arounds but there are many including false bottoms inside the tank.

Everyone have a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and be safe during the holidays.
 
luckie13 said:
Begin using a pumparound for the gas classes. This requires more labor/cost for the track owner but it will insurity parity for all the racers.
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That is probably the 'best' way too reslove the issue! However, there is alot a 'baggage' and 'liability' associated w/it as well.
 
Energy18 said:
All I ever read about is cheating cheating cheating. Sure says a lot about the people in this sport. It really makes me consider how long I will keep my son involved.
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The 'fact' is if you don't keep one eye open....then, your head is in the sand! Sad....but true!
 
racing promotor said:
one way you would stand a chance of controlling it, get all tracks to stick together and if you get caught with these chemicals your banned, no questions ask if all tracks stick together and they race no where you'll have to toss a few but it won't take long they'll get the hint.
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"bingo"
 
Fact is the reason everybody is complaining about tech and the rules isn't the real problem. when you roll in with top of the line equipment, tires and a good wheel it's hard to beat. Some wait till race day to look at their kart and most of them are the ones that do all the complaining. you have to do your homework. hard work pays off. Some will go to any length or expense to win, it's racing and that will never change.
Merry Christmas!!
 
ole_shu said:
fact is the reason everybody is complaining about tech and the rules isn't the real problem. When you roll in with top of the line equipment, tires and a good wheel it's hard to beat. some wait till race day to look at their kart and most of them are the ones that do all the complaining. You have to do your homework. Hard work pays off. some will go to any length or expense to win, it's racing and that will never change.
Merry christmas!!
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Fact!!!! It's been shown in this thread already.
 
we start the morning after racing and inspect the whole kart. then if you have a problem you have time to get the parts and do the repair. we also learn from our mistakes or changes we have made and make note of what effect it had on handling. with ever changing tracks temperatures and weather it's a constant battle to keep up but at least with your references you have a better chance than not.
 
How about after the race collecting a sample from top three in every class and send to lab for testing and everyone will have to wait two to three weeks before getting their money for winning? Seems everyone has the money to cheat, they don't need it right away, right?
 
Comotex said:
How about after the race collecting a sample from top three in every class and send to lab for testing and everyone will have to wait two to three weeks before getting their money for winning? Seems everyone has the money to cheat, they don't need it right away, right?
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Haha thats a good one right there, but you can bet there would be some teams complaining about the waiting period and using that as an excuse not to have that rule. Too many tracks give in too easily to the big money teams when they ask for something to be changed or a call to be reversed. I have seen some of the bigger teams at some of the biigger races, they can get away with alot more than the average racers can. A perfect example of this was a race here in my hometown last month at the Turkey Buzzard race here in Liberty Ky, there were alot of big teams and great drivers that came to the show, the main feature race was a $2000 to win Pro Clone Heavy race, and we sat and watched one kart literally take out half the field, one wreck after another while trying to get to the front where his teammate was. Well the officials let it keep going on until he wrecked another one of the track favorites and put him out of the race, finally they black flagged that driver and it took them about 8 laps worth of cautions just to get him off the track, he kept driving on around the track ignoring the staff and crew like he didnt know he was being black flagged. When he finally did leave the track, there wasnt another wreck for the rest of the race, and was some great racing.

At that race, they were using the Digitron fuel tester, the kind that was handheld and had some type of little round thing that the tech man dipped down into our gas tanks. I didnt see anyone tossed for illegal or hot fuel at any of those races, the tester must have been working pretty good. We had a spec gas station and pump to get the fuel at.
 
Referring to Racing Promotor's post #82
This is the best idea I've heard yet, if we don't stick together the problem will just keep moving. Can we get the Pa tracks to give us there thoughts one way or another, but if your on board sign on and let everyone know, that in its self will send a message to the people using this stuff.
 
I have watched this discussion and some points are really on the mark but others are out there. First off, fuel, Are there gains to be had? of course there are but it's much less than you think. I took one engine and every fuel additive I could get my hands on including 1.4 dioxin. In any concentration that would pass the Digatron DT41 tester which wasn't much to show a 30 point variance. There was never more than a .05 to .10 hp gain. ( That's tenths of a HP in case your confused.) We then tried 7 different enhanced fuels, there were some interesting results. All but one made the same power as regular unleaded fuel. Some made a little more on top others a little more on bottom, but none made more than a .15hp more than plain ole unleaded fuel. To answer the first question, yes we tried different jets, no we never changed the timing. All these fuels also failed the Digatron tester, including the one that did make a .5hp difference, which by the way nearly blew the tester up it was so far off. So the results basically told us that any fuel or additive that could get passed the Digaton did not make any difference at all and even hurt HP sometimes. Despite those who swear otherwise yes 1.4 Dioxin is detectable in any amount that makes the slightest HP gain. So if you use it you are only trying to kill your competition and the spectators, literally. Hear is the real kicker, we had bigger gains from pure E85 and a mixture of 2/3 gas with 1/3 methanol made a bigger gain of X2 or more, than any additive or fuel besides pure methanol.

So fuel and fuel additives are a waste of time and money if you test properly. I am sure some will disagree but you will have to show me proof.

Now oil is a different animal all together and you don't have to build it real loose to see big gains. This is where huge gains are made mainly because everyone has been convinced that oil can't be tested in a gas engine. It's total BS, oil can be tested. We put fresh Power Plus oil in a engine and made 5 dyno pulls, then added 2 ounces of gas to the oil and made 5 more pulls. Then heated the oil to 300 degrees and it did not burn, it did not even flash. So don't even waste your time trying to convince me you can't burn oil in a clone, I know better. If your oil burns it wasn't legal to start with and you probably have some pretty nasty additives in there. Oil companies and builders are banking on this myth that you can't test oil and are deliberately producing these oils and advertising their "superior performance". Now on the flip side there are additives that will pass the flame test and can produce up to .6 HP on top end without sacrificing protection against wear. Some are even nonhazardous to your health with the exception that they tend to explode sometimes. The point being these are oxygenators which can greatly increase power but are exorbitantly expensive. These compounds are highly controlled and very hard to obtain. Very few racers are willing to pay $120 to $150 per gallon for oil, but some do and you are racing against them.

So while gains are extremely small fuel still needs a lot of attention for health reasons. Oil is where the real power is made and the flame test will catch most of it, but not all. A pump around will stop 90% of your fuel problem, Oil is what is hard to control.
 
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