Track Tac

With This Fuel & Oil Additive problem continuing to get more out of hand, Makes me Wonder Why ?

rebsfan4 said:
Because they DO NOT need to be involved with telling ALL tracks what prescribed method they should use for checking fuel OR what specific tool they should have to use. That IS the responsibility of the tracks themselves. It's the responsibility of the tracks also to make sure the tech official is profeciant at using whatever method of testing they choose. That's a liability they (Rules Committees) should not be burdened with. I get it quite well. Your wanting the rules committees to spends countless amounts of money on A LOT of testing. Your asking for something that quite frankly I don't feel anyone has the right to. Your wanting them to expend their money for your benefit. And if they did spend all the money on testing (And it will cost money), who will be expected to help them recoop their costs. And you can exspect them to want a return on that sort of investment.
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Your still not reading and getting it now your back to your days of just wanting to argue things, I'm not asking them to spend countless amounts of money, but I am WONDERING why there not at least purchasing these products and trying to help find a solution, Exactly what your saying they should NOT have to do with Fuel, they have NO problem doing with parts and yes TRAINING is part of that Dyno Don and others are doing it, SO whats the difference, other than they sell parts not fuel ( MAYBE ) I don't know, I do know they state they've been formed to make things better for the racer and the sport ( and uniform rules does Help ) SO why not help police this fuel thing more. They Chose to form there committees and play in this game that LIABILITY goes with being a part of it so why NOT be burdened with it, why would they even feel burdened at all, I chose to operate a race track so I do it, the day I feel Burdened to do it will be the day I QUIT.

Bryan your not the only one that tried therapy, I have as well 2 weeks in the Therapist needed Therapy lol!! ( lighten up )

I'm not COMPLAINING I'm simply asking WHY, I have NO problem doing what were doing or Spending some money to police it, Anyone that tells you how to do something then a little HELP would be nice. ( that does not mean send money, Simply some EFFORT )
 
This post has now cost me more time. LOL I am disturbed by the focus of the post not because anyone made me upset but because I think there needs to be some research done. With that being said, I am having one of the new Digitron testers sent to me and I am going to demonstrate it in the DVD I am doing for tech. I also plan on having it in my possession when I do the tech seminar for the Big East in Feb. ( Jerry, I may need "A LOT MORE TIME THAN I REQUESTED ) I had a l o n g talk with the gentleman who is involved with the design of the unit last night. He enlightened me to many things that I did not know or was aware of. One of the things we discussed was the fact that No sanctioning body has defined which of the 87 octane gas should be used. methanol based or non methanol based. There is a performance difference between the two if you know how to set the engine up properly. I am going to request that the steering committee for AKRA take a look at this issue. Until then I recommend track owners/operators inform their racers that only methanol based 87 octane gasoline be used at their facility.
 
DynoDon said:
This post has now cost me more time. LOL I am disturbed by the focus of the post not because anyone made me upset but because I think there needs to be some research done. With that being said, I am having one of the new Digitron testers sent to me and I am going to demonstrate it in the DVD I am doing for tech. I also plan on having it in my possession when I do the tech seminar for the Big East in Feb. ( Jerry, I may need "A LOT MORE TIME THAN I REQUESTED ) I had a l o n g talk with the gentleman who is involved with the design of the unit last night. He enlightened me to many things that I did not know or was aware of. One of the things we discussed was the fact that No sanctioning body has defined which of the 87 octane gas should be used. methanol based or non methanol based. There is a performance difference between the two if you know how to set the engine up properly. I am going to request that the steering committee for AKRA take a look at this issue. Until then I recommend track owners/operators inform their racers that only methanol based 87 octane gasoline be used at their facility.
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Ya Don I hear ya, I know you've given PLENTY of time, and I appreciate it as a Track Operator, your post leads me back to my question AKRA and the rest should be coming to you with take a look . not you going to them, I understand minor Issues or you Motor heads find a way or understand how parts are getting past rules then you go to them for review, This fuel and oil thing is So out of hand there 100% ALL aware of it and you gotta go to them, Don't get me wrong very glad you are, well guess that's a little messed up but happy to see it's a good start.

Now I will be at the Seminar to learn as much about this tester as possible so ya tell Jerry you need more Time and please if any way possible announce a separate time slot for the fuel deal, I have never attended the others because I know nothing about motors and No interest in leaving just to say I was certified like so many others do.

Don before you spend to much money on your own, you and I and Jeff need to get together no Sense we both purchase same products for testing, I'm going to be getting most I'll gladly pass some onto you, we mid as well blow us all up together lol!!
 
Hot fuel can be VERY expensive. I run in a class where it is ok, and I use it. I buy a 5 gallon jug for 85.00 MAYBE 3 times a yrar. But my 2 stroke goes through a lot more gas than a flathead or a clone. Here is my take on it. I think my fuel allows roughly the same power output of methanol, without the hassle of the corrosion and rusted steel parts. Im pretty sure when I go to start the engine next week, its going to run like it did when I shut it off this week. I hear guys talking about methanol being worth around 10%, but I think that is kind of an inflated number, I would guess its closer to 5%. 5% on a clone is just over 1/2 hp. You would likely get more gain working with the setup or tires. I feel like our setup is pretty good, the driver has lafge 'nads and will set it deep in the corners, 5% to us is about 2 hp, and I dont mind the tuning hassle, so I use it. I did try a similar fuel in our clone, and I didnt see any lap time difference at all.

I guess I'm taking the long way around this, hot fuel isn't the magic key, not by a long shot. IF a guy is running up front, its likely because he is on his a game, NOT because he is running oxygenated fuel. I don't think you really want to wish for alcohol, and the hassles and shortened life between rebuilds that come with it. Just run a good, legal program, and in most cases you clone guys really don't need to worry about the minor boost associated with hot fuel. It really isnt enough to worry about.

in a RYWB class, results may be different. but even then, I'm still not sure.
 
racing promotor said:
Ya Don I hear ya, I know you've given PLENTY of time, and I appreciate it as a Track Operator, your post leads me back to my question AKRA and the rest should be coming to you with take a look . not you going to them, I understand minor Issues or you Motor heads find a way or understand how parts are getting past rules then you go to them for review, This fuel and oil thing is So out of hand there 100% ALL aware of it and you gotta go to them, Don't get me wrong very glad you are, well guess that's a little messed up but happy to see it's a good start.

Now I will be at the Seminar to learn as much about this tester as possible so ya tell Jerry you need more Time and please if any way possible announce a separate time slot for the fuel deal, I have never attended the others because I know nothing about motors and No interest in leaving just to say I was certified like so many others do.

Don before you spend to much money on your own, you and I and Jeff need to get together no Sense we both purchase same products for testing, I'm going to be getting most I'll gladly pass some onto you, we mid as well blow us all up together lol!!
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I was hoping you would offer to blow us up together!!!!! lol
 
racing promotor said:
Your still not reading and getting it now your back to your days of just wanting to argue things, I'm not asking them to spend countless amounts of money, but I am WONDERING why there not at least purchasing these products and trying to help find a solution, Exactly what your saying they should NOT have to do with Fuel, they have NO problem doing with parts and yes TRAINING is part of that Dyno Don and others are doing it, SO whats the difference, other than they sell parts not fuel ( MAYBE ) I don't know, I do know they state they've been formed to make things better for the racer and the sport ( and uniform rules does Help ) SO why not help police this fuel thing more. They Chose to form there committees and play in this game that LIABILITY goes with being a part of it so why NOT be burdened with it, why would they even feel burdened at all, I chose to operate a race track so I do it, the day I feel Burdened to do it will be the day I QUIT.

Bryan your not the only one that tried therapy, I have as well 2 weeks in the Therapist needed Therapy lol!! ( lighten up )

I'm not COMPLAINING I'm simply asking WHY, I have NO problem doing what were doing or Spending some money to police it, Anyone that tells you how to do something then a little HELP would be nice. ( that does not mean send money, Simply some EFFORT )
Click to expand...

Well If having a different opinion of what the rules committee should have to do is arguing then so be it. When they come up with the rule that those of us who can't just throw out $800 dollars (Although I'd love too) at the drop of a hat have too because they say this is the ONLY way you are allowed to check fuel, then I'll voice my opinion again. Sorry I voiced it here. I'll try not to do that anymore.
 
Don ,one correction, I didn't design this instrument ,my input has been to setup procedures to use this instrument for karting on the fuels that are normally specified by their rules committees in addition to other forms of racing and their different fuels by a comparison method. This instrument was designed by a physics who is well known.
5 1/2 years ago I had to have lung surgery, my Dr.s didn't think I would survive but I did. Samples from inside my lungs were sent to the Mayo clinic for testing and the results said over 27 different substances/virus were found to be contained in the lung sample that wasn't normal but they could not say which one caused my lungs to fill full of fluids and one of them and to solidify within a matter of three days. The six months prior to my lung problems I was attending indoor racing events almost every weekend, these were karting events, tractor pulls and other forms of indoor racing events. At the Tunica event the stuff in the air was so bad from fuels and preps that not only was my face actually blackened but my little sides controls on my camera were stuck.
I no longer attend these indoor events unless I wear a mask, I personally won't test these additives that some have sent me and let others do it as most are a suspected carcinogenic and I may not be as lucky as the last time or I would attend the seminar and test any thing that others bring.
 
WE have all been trying to figure out how to find additives in the pits ,does anyone know what it cost to have oil and fuel tested in a lab and what lab do you send it to ?
 
Approx. 250 dollars. I am working with Jeff Howell of Lil Greenwood Raceway in finding out where to send it to. When we find out what direction we are going to go over this problem. we will inform others on here as to the steps needed to follow for that process. This entire post has many of us considering our health as well as the health of others at the track especially those who are following an engine that is using a illegal fuel. I know there will be a positive outcome in the near future. Let me say this. It is of the consensus of everyone I have spoken to that if anyone in Pa. gets caught with a harmful ingredient that has been sent out to a lab and identified as such, it isn't going to be pleasant for that individual. If there is any one topic that Ken Chub ( Racing Promoter ) has tried to offer the Pa. Track Owners Assoc. this is one we all need to get on board with.
 
Begin using a pumparound for the gas classes. This requires more labor/cost for the track owner but it will insurity parity for all the racers.
 
Isn't Randy of Track Tac is a chemist, might he be a possible person already within the industry, to ask if it would be worth it to him to do the specific testing that may be needed? I suspect you don't have to test for every specific thing that can be put in fuel, just categories of things used. Racers would have to be told and understand tracks don't care what they used, if a category shows up in the test they don't care what it was there out.

__________________

I found a url to EPA testing costs. I have no clue what you get for what cost and what the list means, it's just something I found that might put testing cost into some sort of perspective.

http://www.epa.gov/superfund/programs/clp/prices.htm

... ya know I'm so paranoid about our government checking and spying on every thing on the web, even putting this url on here makes me wonder if it will make some government computer somewhere key in on this post. ... :(
 
All I ever read about is cheating cheating cheating. Sure says a lot about the people in this sport. It really makes me consider how long I will keep my son involved.
 
All I ever read about is cheating cheating cheating. Sure says a lot about the people in this sport. It really makes me consider how long I will keep my son involved.
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I wouldn't get to upset about this. This is life. It's not just karting but in all sports to a degree. Generally families in karting are terrific and often times go far out of their way to help struggling or beginners teams to the sport.

DK
 
PowerMist Nitro x2 when mixed at 4.5oz to 1 gallon will provide a 3% hp gain in a bsp clone and still pass the strictest of all tests. Even at track that utilize the Digatron equipment and also specify which pump to purchase the local fuel from.

VP racing fuels also sells an oxygenated gas that can pass the testing equipment as well but it has a much stronger odor than the normal "gas" or the "gas" mixed with the Nitro x2.

It is being mixed and used successfully and more widespread than most think.
 
Hum , I just tested that additive recently at a well known motor builders shop, I calibrated the meter with 100AV gas and then tested the 87 octane methanol and and then tested it by adding 4 ounces of this additive it changed DC1 b y 80 plus points in the positive direction and DC2 by 6 points, in other words it flunked DC1 by most tracks range and all tracks on DC2 readings. I also ask the motor shop to run a dyno test on the motor with and without the additive without making any adjustments to the engine,all three runs show no hp gain....
So what did your readings show in numbers?
 
Some additional info, to my post 76, I then added some other gas(non ethanol) to get the fuel to read on DC1 within 20 counts of what the original un treated fuel tested but even through the volume of fuel was no longer 1 gal but 1 1/2 gallons the DC2 reading was still changing between 4 and 5 points, I admit on DC1 only it would have passed if limit was set to plus or minus 25 counts from tech sample. but would have failed on DC2.
 
If you all figure out something for sure which will pass the test, tell everyone to use it and how to use it.

Problem solved.
 
captnimo said:
Don ,one correction, I didn't design this instrument ,my input has been to setup procedures to use this instrument for karting on the fuels that are normally specified by their rules committees in addition to other forms of racing and their different fuels by a comparison method. This instrument was designed by a physics who is well known.
5 1/2 years ago I had to have lung surgery, my Dr.s didn't think I would survive but I did. Samples from inside my lungs were sent to the Mayo clinic for testing and the results said over 27 different substances/virus were found to be contained in the lung sample that wasn't normal but they could not say which one caused my lungs to fill full of fluids and one of them and to solidify within a matter of three days. The six months prior to my lung problems I was attending indoor racing events almost every weekend, these were karting events, tractor pulls and other forms of indoor racing events. At the Tunica event the stuff in the air was so bad from fuels and preps that not only was my face actually blackened but my little sides controls on my camera were stuck.
I no longer attend these indoor events unless I wear a mask, I personally won't test these additives that some have sent me and let others do it as most are a suspected carcinogenic and I may not be as lucky as the last time or I would attend the seminar and test any thing that others bring.
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My roots lie deep in stock car racing in the Pa-NJ-NY area. Being track photographer at the Nazareth Half Mile and the Nazareth Mile until they closed I have a good insight to many things that happened that not everyone knew about.

In the mid 70's to the mid 89's we lost at least ten of the superstars of the 50's and 60's thirty years too soon from cancer. While it is not known if this contributed to their deaths all of these drivers had one thing in common. Benzine. Benzine was used as a fuel additive to the extend these guys practically bathed in it when mixing it and dumping it in the tanks. No one thought anything of it at the time but benzine is absorbed through the skin directly into the bloodstream withoiut a break in the skin. Benzine was determined to be so dangerous the federal government banned the production for many years but now is allowed to be produced in some form. I am not saying any of todays's additives have benzine but this is one of many substances that are extremely dangerous.
 
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