Daytona Classes

4Cycle Road Racers. This is what I sent to the WKA staff and Gene. I have not received a response. This was sent on November 21. There was a board meeting yesterday.

Gentlemen

I spoke to my Trustee, Jerry Cole, yesterday about the situation of including Pro-Gas Animal in the Road Race at Daytona. I am supportive of adding the Pro-Gas class based on its popularity in Gold Cup and its potential to bring in other races, especially new racers, into the Road Race Series. However, I am concerned about the addition of the Pro-Gas class to the current Animal classes as an equal competitor.

First, we have no Road Race data to support the combination of these engines in the same class. We certainly do not have any data that supports a weight penalty.

Second, the inclusion of a different motor package in a current class has always caused issues, even when the same or similar lap times are present. This is due to the variations in the power band for the motors. This is why motors with similar lap times (like Yamaha Can and Animal) are started separately. Even though lap times are similar, they end up causing problems with the other class due to braking and acceleration differences. This is something that can only be realized behind the wheel of one of the two classes.

Third, because of this last statement, I believe the input of the RR Competition Committee should have been solicited. I am the only regular 4-cycle Competitor on the RR Competition Committee. I believe I have done my duty to solicit input from the 4-cycle community when changes have been on the table and communicated that input back to the Chairperson and committee. I believe this is an issue that was ripe for the input of the committee before a decision was made.

Fourth, this motor package was given to us 5 weeks before Daytona. I realize it is out there in Dirt and Gold Cup, however not all of us are crossover racers. I am lucky to find the time to race in a package of RR races each year. Without any knowledge of the Pro-Gas package, I am now expected to compete against it in my current Animal class.

I am respectfully requesting that the Pro-Gas Animal be removed from the Animal 335/360/385/410 classes for 2013/2014. At the end of the year, the competition committee can be solicited for input about combining the classes using the data generated this year during the circuit.

Respectfully submitted,

Jack Reall, WKA #52779M
Animal RR Competitor
WKA RR Competition Committee Member
 
Gene Davis said:
2. As chairman of the committee I get credit when stuff is right and also when it is wrong. That goes with the job. The class structure was not my idea but I do agree with the decision the trustees made.
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Gene, how can you agree with a decision that was made without information to support (or not support) that decision.

Gene Davis said:
3. As far as no on track testing the Alky animal and the pro gas have raced together in gold cup. What I have been told is that pro gas has not won any of those races. Sprint courses like Beaver Run are very close to a road race track.
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I have not been to Beaver Run, but I doubt it is anything like Daytona unless they race wide open there for 3/4 of the time they are on the track. We all know at Daytona you could give up several positions in the infield if you had the topend to run on the big track. From what I'm told (will be about 2 more weeks before I can build one) the Pro-Gas engine has more topend power than the WKA Animal does AND they will be getting a 15 pound weight break.

Gene Davis said:
4. The trustees have given people the authority at Daytona to make changes during the race event should the performance of the pro gas be above what is expected.
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Who has this power? When will this decision be made? What are the options that are available to the "people" making the decision at Daytona? Where is the precedent for this type of ruling?

Gene Davis said:
6. How many of you run your regular aminal motor in the limited modified class. I know it has happened because I have been told so. I see this as the same thing. Sometimes you just have a bad weekend and all the fast stuff breaks and it is nice to have a reliable motor you can bold on so at least you get out on the track.
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I have never heard of anyone doing this or seen it at any of the races I've been to.

Gene Davis said:
7. Hope to see everyone at Daytona.
Gene
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Hope to see you also.

To everyone that does NOT support this change, I still urge you to contact your Trustee and anyone else that will listen ASAP. To this day, Gene is the ONLY person that has responded to me. No word from my Trustee or anyone else in WKA that I have sent messages to. I get the feeling, there is no way they intend to make any changes to this decision. Some one, some where is driving this for some reason, and I can't believe WKA dropped this on the 4cy RR's this close to Daytona.

I thank Gene for responding to my emails and on here, I wouldn't want his job!!! ;) Again, thanks for the taking the time to listen to us vent and responding. At least we know someone at least takes the time to read emails and respond.
 
Jamie,

With regards to the Animal Pro Gas vs. Animal Alky. I looked over some of our dyno results and below is a comparison of the HP levels at a few rpm points. One important factor I want to point out. Over the years of building the Animal Alky we have seen power level variations of about .5 HP from engine to engine built the same. As a comparison we have seen about .2 HP variations in the Animal Pro Gas in the 88 engines we have tested so far. The reason I am pointing that variation out is that is the variation just in our shop. Can you imagine the variation we would see if we had the chance to dyno test all the engines that all other engine builders have built on our dyno. I can at least imagine variations in the .75 or more HP. We could talk for hours about that topic and I would welcome that conversation with you any time. Primarily that is driven because of the current Animal Alky engine tech specifications. The reason the Animal Pro Gas has a reduced HP variation is because of the more restrictive tech specifications. So with that being said keep in mind that the data I listed below is only based on our dyno tested of our best Pro Gas vs. best Alky Animal engine. Our dyno does not use correction factors that increase the HP numbers but does have an on board weather station that will correct of variations in air quality. Remember also that this cannot be compared to other dyno machines. As I stated somewhere on Bobs I really do not know road racing that well and would be the first one to tell you I am not sure how these engines will compare on the race track. One would think however that the Pro Gas would not beat the Alky engine based on our dyno data. As far as mixing the Pro Gas and Alky in one class, all I can say it's going to be challenging for WKA and the racers to be all on the same page on that issue. I will add that to develop the correct weight difference for 100% equality will be a moving target as you race all the different configurations of race tracks.

Special thanks the Jerry Cole and Paul Rice Sr & Jr for sponsoring the Pro Gas final 1 & 2 class!

Animal Pro Gas HP
10.25 @ 5000
11.25 @ 6000
10.50 @ 7000
9.0 @ 8000

Animal Alky HP
11.50 @ 5000
12.00 @ 6000
10.75 @ 7000
9.25 @ 8000

Happy Thanksgiving to all!
Steve Baker
 
Happy Thanksgiving to all !

MGM is having an open house on Saturday ,if any one in the area want away from the shopping nightmare !! Lol
Nath will be cooking some of his famous "Rolling Smoke " BQ !

At Daytona we will be testing a gas animal to see what the actual track performance shall be .

Like most of the drivers in the animal house , I have as well have spoke to several WKA officials to try to run the gas animal only in its new National Level Class . The officials have told me that if a driver breaks his/her alky motor at least they could still race .

Thanks go to Jerry Cole from MKS and Steve Baker from BRE for their support on trying to keep everyone informed about this new motor package for Daytona !

Please feel free to come over and talk to Paul or myself at Daytona about the gas animal and its performance !
Have a safe trip and see you guys at Daytona !!
 
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Gene, the trustee situation is very much part of the problem I have brought up his issue goes back to Randy's days. The problem I have had for most of my 28 years is, from our area (Wi) my trustee has almost always been a 2 cy Man Cup guy. Often I have personally know these guys. Some have freely admitted to me, they know nothing about 4 cy and nothing about RR. One told me " Bob, your the only guy that has called with that question, do you really think I'm going to bring up that ONE person had a complaint or question.
Each form of racing should be governed by its own Competition Comm. That whey, we have a person, knowledgeable on exactly what we do, to speak for us. I have brought this up for a decade, WKA doesn't like this because they can "use" the trustee situation as they wish. I am a 20+ year veteran of being on a karting board, I understand when your around the table how explaining only the info you want out, to a group of board members with little to no personal info on a subject can be used. You can easily guide the vote anywhere you want it to go. Sorry to be so blunt, but I've seen it.
Steve my friend, sorry I have to dis-agree, we do dyno most engines and don't see that much variance on ones going out the door. PG and BP Animal use for the most part use exactly the same parts, their built from the same production run. Different cam, changes in the carb but really little difference between them. Over the last decade our focus has moved to 120 sled engines, 4 different brands plus Animals these can range from 3.5 HP stockers to 28 HP opens, all small OHV engines, all can be built to very close HP. An engine is just an engine, they all build the same

To the new guy, Its sound like your just entering the Road Race world. I hope you have as much fun as we did (actually still do). I would suggest you listen to some of the old guy whining, they have been down this road. The politics can and will have a big effect on your wallet as take this trip. Good Luck
 
My Friend Bob V. I went back into more of our dyno data to look at a larger sample size and actually we have even seen slightly more variation than .5 HP for the Animal Alky engines. Seriously there is probably not enough hours in the day for us to totally evaluate and understand why your dyno data is more consistent then ours. I would like to think that after spending close to $20,000.00 on our dyno facility with all the precision instrumentation this would not be a contributing factor for our results. Another point of interest we build our share of Honda 120 QM gas engines and even as consistent and accurate Honda is at building engines and our fine tuning to them as it relates to compression ratio, ignition timing and air fuel ratio we still see about a .2 HP variation from engine to engine we build. Any time you want to discuss how we build engines as compared to you I would look forward to that conversation Bob!

Steve
 
Steve, anytime on the dyno conversation. This weekend were up in Mn for the first Snowmobile National. Tunw in at WWW.isocracing.com the whole thing is broadcast live Sat and Sun.
Now back to the problem of the day. the two issues I see
1 Combining gas and alky classes together, mostly I guess because it seems not one person is in favor of it. Hmmmm

2,As you and I talked on the PH, I don't have a problem if PG became THEE class to run on the national level. 10-15 years ago it was F200 out here that got all the attention. The problem I see is WKA always adds classes, without removing any. Right now for the 4 cy group you have, PG, Alky A. LO 206, cloan and LM, most with several weight classes.

At what point does the quality of the races deminish to the point of not being worth while?

In both CES and at Badger, Regan runs a couple special races each year, we had 37 Animals all running together at Badger. People come because they know, weather you run front, mid pack or back, with a good turn out, you will have people to race against. It will be a good race, thats what draws them. I like to think thats why we all do this
 
There is no way a pro gas engine will be faster in any condition even with 15#. I would guess it would take closer to 30#. Beaverun you run almost a half mile without lifting much. The alky engine is faster everywhere
 
I'm nobody in this discussion but as a guy who shows up when he can and enters Animal classes (and two stroke classes as well) here are my thoughts on Bob V's comments.

Bob Vehring said:
I don't have a problem if PG became THEE class to run on the national level
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YES!

Bob Vehring said:
At what point does the quality of the races diminish to the point of not being worth while?
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I know people who don't road race any more for this reason. The guy who races out of my trailer that I got started in RR in 2006 is ready to drop out because of this.

Bob Vehring said:
People come because they know, weather you run front, mid pack or back, with a good turn out, you will have people to race against. It will be a good race, thats what draws them. I like to think thats why we all do this
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This is exactly why about five years ago, after 35 years of racing nothing but 2 strokes, I bought an Animal. I knew I wouldn't run up front, but would always likely have someone to race with. I've had the most fun racing in memory since running my first Animal race in 2011.

I understand the promoter's dilemma. Got to get enough entries to pay the bills. At some point though the continued slicing up of the pie is going to kill it all because the people who come (or would come back!) because of decent sized grids will all be gone. I just mentioned my racing buddy above who is discouraged and may not race this year. I'm starting to get there.

Bruce Peck - Indy
 
If you want more people to come to Kart racing......promote it. Dont add more classes. The slow gas class is going to wind up costing just as much as the other Animals and it wont take long.
 
By all means promoting is a key solution to helping get attention to a great sport. As far as the PRO GAS being slow... you are far off the track with that comment.
 
Dr.T said:
If you want more people to come to Kart racing......promote it. Dont add more classes. The slow gas class is going to wind up costing just as much as the other Animals and it wont take long.
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Agree on promoting instead of adding classes.
 
First, to Mag 17 point, "slow" is a relative answer PG will be faster then LO206, my guess by quite a bit, it will be a complete dog compared to Limited, again,my guess is definatley slower then Alky A by a fair amount, and compared to the built cloan, well IDK we don't have them up here
Ask a shifter or TaG guy, were all "slow"

Its good to see people interested in promoting the sport, it is the only way it will grow. Its what I do so I'll pass on some pointers.
First, looking at forums or such, people say the econ sucks so our kart count is down. Total BS, that only means no one is trying. We've had our best results in decades promoting our track over the last few years.
If you have a 100K car or 50 K sled, bikes, boats, quads, yes the bad econ might hurt, but their still racers. Tell them they can race karts for a couple grand and they line up to get started.To them were a bargin. Many of the new people at Badger have come from something else, and karting is far cheaper
The sad truth is, we could use rubber bands for engines, and some people still couldn't afford it, so you have to market yourself to the places and the people that do have money. The avg price in Snowmobiles for a Champ sled for your 8-12 yo is 10 Grand, many families have two. We have 5 or 6 of these families also racing karts during the summer because its so cheap to them. Certainly there's plenty of people that can't afford sleds, but could afford karting, you just need to find them.
You have to understand promoting to get any results. Its simply about numbers, you have to talk to about 1000 people to get one to really come check it out. You have to spend money to make money. I won't do a show unless it claims better then 10,000 attendees, even thats a small show. Expect to pay around $1000 for booth space at a 15. K att. show That sounds like alot of money. We figure the avg. racer spends about a grand with us over a season, Membership, race entries, practice days, pit passes, 16 times a year. So, if I get one new person from that show, I broke even, but if I get 2, we made a grand and so on down the line. Two years ago we stepped up and did our State fair, It brings in over one million spectators. That cost us $4500. but we got about 25 new people from that That made us about 20K. When we do well, the kart shops do well, the track food vendor does well, they all spend money supporting us, and we all grow.
The people that say they aren't doing well, especially now, are the people that aren't doing anything about it. New people will not really just show up on their own, you have to go out and get them. Good Luck
 
I am pretty sure his comparison was more to the Stock Alky motor and not a shifter or other. What are the motors in discussion? Alky vs the PG... We have raced the PG.. at our home track and have won with it nationally. Compared to the alky motor it is not far off. I am comparing similar products. Agreed to the tag and shifter we are darn slow.. LOL

How different will it be on a Daytona big track.. that weekend will tell. On a short tight track.. like Barnesville for a sprint race.. the alky will probably seem like it can jump out of the corners as compared to the PG. I too am not in favor of running different motor packages together. The weight trade off will never equalize anything...But we will be there supporting a friend who will be on the PG. Just because it is Daytona.
 
My point is.....cost, just like in flatheads and clones will be equal to BP Animal in no time. No cost savings there. The cost of a BP Animal when it first came out was about the same as what Steve is selling them for now.
I dont agree with mixing PG with BP Animals and scoring them the same together. If you have add a class delite a small class. Promote the sport as I have said and Bob followed up with. I have raced many things in my life and have always had karts as well. Bang for the buck......best racing to be had, short or long track is a kart.

It will be a big differance between PG and BP at Daytona. Then rule changes and weight breaks to make up for it.

In talking with a couple guys over the weekend who run PG, they told me they freshen them up just as often as BP Animal as suggested by their builder to stay up front.

If I offended you Mag17 by calling them slow, I am sorry. Maybe you can prove me wrong.......
 
MAG17 said:
I am pretty sure his comparison was more to the Stock Alky motor and not a shifter or other. What are the motors in discussion? Alky vs the PG... We have raced the PG.. at our home track and have won with it nationally. Compared to the alky motor it is not far off. I am comparing similar products. Agreed to the tag and shifter we are darn slow.. LOL
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Geez all other PG folks are saying they'll be waaaayy slower than alky, and that even the 15# weight advantage won't help. Sooooo which is it?

MAG17 said:
I too am not in favor of running different motor packages together. The weight trade off will never equalize anything...But we will be there supporting a friend who will be on the PG. Just because it is Daytona.
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We do agree to keep them separate, and this arbitrary weight thing, nothing to be learned there at all. One thing you'll also soon realize when it comes to road racing. We ALL support one another. It doesn't matter what class you run, but in particular the 4 cycles stick together.

One other thing folks should know about road racing style. There's no beating and banging on one another. Not saying there isn't contact from time to time, but you do your best to avoid it. At the speeds we run, nobody wins those contests.
 
Dr T,
I only know of one engine builder out of approximately 5 that build pro gas engines that is not a believer that they last much longer than the alky engine. This builder was not in favor of the package to begin with so I don't think they will be promoting pro gas as a better alternative to the alky engine. EVERY other builder that I know of at the gold cup strongly agrees that the pro gas is superior to the alky engine in longevity and ease of use.

Snapshot,
What is you definition of "waaaayy?" At the same weight on a sprint track I would say it is .5 difference on a half mile track. Some tracks more and some less depending on how tight they are. I estimate 15 lbs would make up half of that. I wouldn't say .5 is much compared to a TAG engine being 4 seconds faster but I wouldn't want to race against someone with an engine a half second faster.
 
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