Attention All Certified Tech
- Thread starter DynoDon
- Start date
flattop1
Dawg 89
I'm sure he was not the only one who knew .
Kinda like speeding it's against the rules , still happens .
At the discretion of the police officer .
Everyone is good with it till caught .
He's the one that let it get by.
I think there is plenty of blame to go around.
From whatever acronym sanctioning body to race promoters, to tracks using whatever rule set to give the perception of racing on a level playing field.
If tech is not happening, or is not transparent, why bother with a really complicated ruleset?
If you are not going to at least enforce proper restrictor plate usage, for a given class, how can racers expect the rest of tech to be covered fairly?
Motorsports, from lowly local classes, to formula 1, all suffer from applying the limitations listed in their rule sets fairly and consistently.
I guess if enough racers vote with their pocketbooks to keep tracks and sanctions still functioning, it's good enough.
Racers are still their own worst enemy.
Any rule application should be based on the rule, not by the financial penalties imposed by enforcing said rule.
As far as making the existing heads with incorrect angle legal, your supplier gambled that just this thing would happen.
Keep the existing rule, if a tool is available to tech it.
If you have these heads, you can continue to gamble it will not get caught, or get the correct head and be correct. You have already benefited from tech not calling you out, so there is no undue financial strain.
If no tool can be made to accurately tech this, then the bad rule should be removed, as if it never existed.
The tool should not require "trained eye" as part of tech process.
From whatever acronym sanctioning body to race promoters, to tracks using whatever rule set to give the perception of racing on a level playing field.
If tech is not happening, or is not transparent, why bother with a really complicated ruleset?
If you are not going to at least enforce proper restrictor plate usage, for a given class, how can racers expect the rest of tech to be covered fairly?
Motorsports, from lowly local classes, to formula 1, all suffer from applying the limitations listed in their rule sets fairly and consistently.
I guess if enough racers vote with their pocketbooks to keep tracks and sanctions still functioning, it's good enough.
Racers are still their own worst enemy.
Any rule application should be based on the rule, not by the financial penalties imposed by enforcing said rule.
As far as making the existing heads with incorrect angle legal, your supplier gambled that just this thing would happen.
Keep the existing rule, if a tool is available to tech it.
If you have these heads, you can continue to gamble it will not get caught, or get the correct head and be correct. You have already benefited from tech not calling you out, so there is no undue financial strain.
If no tool can be made to accurately tech this, then the bad rule should be removed, as if it never existed.
The tool should not require "trained eye" as part of tech process.
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rebsfan4
Member
It's a good thing I don't make the rules because I would NEVER cater to the builder flooding the market with illegal parts. I guess it's just the ***hole in me but, way more people are going to have to have a head redone to bring it up to the new level of "legality" or flat our buy a new one, as compared to the amount of people who would have to report back to their engine builder to make their stuff right, at the engine builders cost of a replacement head or losing a customer. They way the builders are allowed to manipulate the system just to have the rules changed to their benefit, while never standing up to them, is the exact same thing as telling that whining kid in the grocery line they can't have the candy bar, only to end up getting it for them anyway. We a know what that kid will do the next time they're in the grocery store line. I was told by an individual, who runs engines from the supposed main source of these heads, that I wouldn't be taking the head off of his engines, after I mentioned to him that he needs to make sure he doesn't have one of these heads. I just sunk over a couple grand into all the mess again and I'm already thinking about selling it all again.
rebsfan4
Member
Randall has always been known as the tech guy who likes to look for reasons to toss an engine in tech. If it's true that he's been turning a blind eye to the head issue, we've got a way deeper problem than just an engine builder pushing the limits of legality. We've surpassed that issue and have gone into full blown corruption of the sport and its spirit and intent.
Burris Racer
Member
"Which eye does AKRA want blackened" seems to point to risk mitigation.
This decision could lead to members not renewing and/or tracks chosing an alternative sanctioning body or insurance provider.
flattop1
Dawg 89
There are only three choices if it's new or fresh . Hope it's 75* . Change it or leave it be . All depending how the rules go . Which my money is 75* .
bricklayer653
Member
There is no decision to be made ...we don't cater to cheating ... when the seats were cut a 75 degree cutter was used there was no mistake in that ...thats not touching the gray areas thats making an illegal head period we stay at 60 degrees max and as tech guys we do what we can to keep the sport fair for all ...for those that bought the illegal heads ask for a refund if none is given then you are allowed to tell everyone your story and drag the builders name through the mud
B&B Performance Engines
Member
I say if NKA comes up with a tech tool for it then keep it at the 30/45/60 like it has always been & throw that cost right back on every single builder that is using or fixing them. 60 to a 75 isn't a mistake, it's an intent to get the rule changed & that's exactly what will happen since Randall is Mr. NKA. He's catered to a few select builders here in the south for years now plus he builds a few motors his self to. I've watched tech closely for years at many big races & seen the select builders motors go in tech for a $5000 race & it not be in there no longer than 15-30 mins, let another builder go in tech that isn't one of the select & he'll be in there for hours. I've seen it happen many times. People can say & think what they want but It's pockets being fed with green backs no doubt in tech & like one said above it's total corruption at it's best.
rebsfan4
Member
I don't mind calling a spade a spade and sure don't mind calling anyone out. We all know the main source of these heads He's using them on his builds and he's selling them to other builders to use on their own builds.
So this is how he describes the head for the AKRA built clone.......
"This is the same cylinder head used on our Signature Series Engines. A 3 angle valve job is perfectly machined on our state of the art Rottler seat and guide machine. The head is ported to take advantage of the AKRA rules. No doubt about it, these are the absolute best prepared heads in the industry. Fully machined and assembled, ready to bolt on and go. Includes machined valves, hand picked springs, and rocker arms. Valve lift will need to be checked once installed to verify legality and performance."
In the AKRA rule book, it's plainly stated on page 49 under CYLINDER HEAD REQUIREMEMTS, 4th sentence........"Valve seats may have up to three angles, 45 degrees valve face and 30 degrees top relief and 60 degree bottom relief."
On page 51 under valve train, 7th sentence states, "Stock steel/stainless nitrate coated valves only 45 degree angle only both valves with a minimum weight of 21 grams each valve, stick valves only 45 degree only both valves, intake valve max OD .982" +/- .005" and Exhaust valve max OD .945" +/- .005", NO MODIFICATIONS ALLOWED."
SO.....If theres a relief angle on the valve seat that's greater than 60 degrees, it's a violation of the rules.
If we go by the description of the head itself there's a violation of the valve train rules as stated on page 51. "Machined valves" are not "stock" valves and "machined valves" are, without a doubt, modified.
Engine builder......I want a candy bar.
Rule makers.........No
Engine builder......I want a candy bar.
Rule makers.........NO
Engine builder......BUT I WANT A CANDY BAR!!!
Rule makers.........Ok, just this one time.
Somewhere down the road.....
Engine builder........I want a candy bar.
Rule makers...........NO
Engine builder........but you let me have one last time.
So this is how he describes the head for the AKRA built clone.......
"This is the same cylinder head used on our Signature Series Engines. A 3 angle valve job is perfectly machined on our state of the art Rottler seat and guide machine. The head is ported to take advantage of the AKRA rules. No doubt about it, these are the absolute best prepared heads in the industry. Fully machined and assembled, ready to bolt on and go. Includes machined valves, hand picked springs, and rocker arms. Valve lift will need to be checked once installed to verify legality and performance."
In the AKRA rule book, it's plainly stated on page 49 under CYLINDER HEAD REQUIREMEMTS, 4th sentence........"Valve seats may have up to three angles, 45 degrees valve face and 30 degrees top relief and 60 degree bottom relief."
On page 51 under valve train, 7th sentence states, "Stock steel/stainless nitrate coated valves only 45 degree angle only both valves with a minimum weight of 21 grams each valve, stick valves only 45 degree only both valves, intake valve max OD .982" +/- .005" and Exhaust valve max OD .945" +/- .005", NO MODIFICATIONS ALLOWED."
SO.....If theres a relief angle on the valve seat that's greater than 60 degrees, it's a violation of the rules.
If we go by the description of the head itself there's a violation of the valve train rules as stated on page 51. "Machined valves" are not "stock" valves and "machined valves" are, without a doubt, modified.
Engine builder......I want a candy bar.
Rule makers.........No
Engine builder......I want a candy bar.
Rule makers.........NO
Engine builder......BUT I WANT A CANDY BAR!!!
Rule makers.........Ok, just this one time.
Somewhere down the road.....
Engine builder........I want a candy bar.
Rule makers...........NO
Engine builder........but you let me have one last time.
Last edited by a moderator:
DynoDon
Moderator
(ADD) Running lift will be checked by the new running lift tool. Running lift will be checked at the tip of the valve stem. When checking lift without the use of the degree wheel, piston should be as close to top dead center as possible before setting dial indicator to “0”. To view a video on proper use of the tool go to this link:
Pg 53: line 3: Header and muffler requirements: The entire exhaust pipe including the muffler is 15” max length and 10” min length. ( add ) A three inch wide added safety plate constructed of a piece of 1/4 inch aluminum or 3/16 steel must be attached to the chain guard for the purpose of covering the entire weenie pipe. Total length will be dependent on the type of exhaust system used and must end flush or more than to the very end of the muffler. All sharp edges must be removed. Added protection plate must be bolted to the chain quard with two nuts and bolts either safety wired or double nutted.
NOTE: All weenie pipe systems must conform to the new safety feature by April 1st 2022
Pg 53: line 3: Header and muffler requirements: The entire exhaust pipe including the muffler is 15” max length and 10” min length. ( add ) A three inch wide added safety plate constructed of a piece of 1/4 inch aluminum or 3/16 steel must be attached to the chain guard for the purpose of covering the entire weenie pipe. Total length will be dependent on the type of exhaust system used and must end flush or more than to the very end of the muffler. All sharp edges must be removed. Added protection plate must be bolted to the chain quard with two nuts and bolts either safety wired or double nutted.
NOTE: All weenie pipe systems must conform to the new safety feature by April 1st 2022
Arik434
Member
Any pics or examples of this weenie pipe rule? Seems a little confusing.
DynoDon
Moderator
Go to my site for a picture. Click on photos and scroll to the bottom. Not very professionally done but I am sick so it was a quickie just to give the idea of what AKRA is looking for. www.dynodonkartengines.com
Arik434
Member
Thanks Don. That helps me understand what they are looking for. Not sure what I think about it, but I guess if it keeps kids safer, then I’ll give it a whirl.
Feel better soon….
Arik